CC, C5 to Fillmore bridge

[Lightning]

Any one own both the Fillmore and either of these SDs...would appreciate opinion...

[papersoul]

I have been exchanging email with a guy who owns the Custom, C-5, and Fillmore. He plays everything and prefers the Fillmore, then Custom, then C-5.

[Lightning]

Fillmore Report

A friend's '81 Tokai Love Rock came in yesterday (eBay purchase) with Fillmore's installed.

I didn't find this at the WCR website but he told me both pickups are wired with #43 (10.3k and 13.2). scatter wound, A5 aged, and a air gap like DiMarzio airbuckers.

HEAD to the SHED. On the way there I argued that the output would be high (I'm thinking this pickup is a modded C5), Nic is convinced it is slightly over vintage (mid peak is lower than JB and makes you think it's hotter but it's less).

Nic is a Blues encyclopedia, I'm a Duane Allman freak, my flesh technique is to the likes of Jimmy Herring (I not saying as good as) and slide is to the likes of Duane, JW, Derek, and Rob Zombie.

Test gear: Mesa Dual Rectifier (set for Duane Fillmore ch 1 rhythm vol ch 2 Lead vol), and a Blues DeVille (ch 1 clean reverb, ch 2 Dreams tone w/reverb).

My overall opinion of these pickups is I wish I'd (we'd) had them 30 years ago (30 years ago you couldn't even buy an after market pickup). If we had had them 30 years ago look where the technology would be now, I feel like these pickups are a crude example of what could be a great pickup. They are weirdly authentic to Duane's tone, they mimic the sound of Duane's #3 LP into a fuzzface in to a modified Marshall in the Fillmore room.
I was going to buy a set, but now that Nic has the set for me to compare to (Nic's ecstatic, says this is the pickup he's spent his whole life looking for, better than his real PAF and Pat sticker pickups (pickups bought in pursuit of the Duane Fillmore tone), will never let go) but there's a few things I want to try first, C2, C5, JB/Super Distortion hybrid, and a custom/Super Distortion hybrid both with A type mags. I will say this, the Fillmore pickups and the 50's mod have opened me up to entertaining higher output bridge pickups.

So here's my reasons for not just ordering a set (I have to run I'll post other reasons later).

My favorite neck pick up for the Duane neck tone is a 76 Ventura 8.1 scatter wound, mag weaker than A2 (I guess that makes it an A3) which after wax potting it is still microphonic. Through the Mesa the Fillmore's where more microphonic than the Ventura... Bummer...The price you pay for scatters. Closest to Duane Fillmore Elizabeth, Whipping, and even closer to Mt. Jam, and You Don't Love Me, I've ever heard.
Through the Fender (ch 2 Dreams tone guitar vol on 7) they nail that BB King Lab Amp tone with built in compressor on. That's just weird to me. Guitar on ten tone on 8 (no 50s mod...drag) I played the solo from dreams, I have 12 other pickups that would do it better but the bridge pickup...Please Call Home.

By far microphonics were less an issue through the Fender but is still my main reason not to order a set now.
Chuck

[papersoul]

Nice review...

I am actually thinking of grabbing a set of Fillmores or the HERC bridge for my les pual, but may try the Duncan C-5/59 combo first.

I am going for a more modern and heavy tone.......not Allman. I'll give a report if I do.

The Fillmore cam highly recommended.....but micrphonic?

[jmcorey]

Lightning,

I thought A2's were weaker than A3's, and that they get stronger as the numbers go up.

Joe

[Lightning]

Responce

JM Corey,
I thought that to till I got on the forum and called that Ventura mag an A1. Dr. B provided me these links (and a few others that are lost and I hope he happen's to read this and gives them to us again.

http://www.dextermag.com/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=125

http://www.accuratemagnets.com/home.htm

http://www.allstarmagnetics.com

Paper Soul,
Hey man, who was the first US guy to use a modified 4 gain stage Marshall…Duane man. In the world…Duane and Tony (Laney first 2 gains feed power amp and second and 2 gains providing a blend of 2 and 4 gain). I consider Duane's tone a metal tone (okay grung), dude used a fuzzy fuzz in front of the amp too. I think the Fillmore's emulate Duane's 335 tone which is not so metal (very creamy) but retains LP 3's Fillmore* sizzle (It's like the fuzz is built into the pickup and turns on when the volume is at 7 or above). I'm thinking C5 cause it can't be so over the top as the Fillmore bridge. The Fillmore bridge makes the DD and JB seem tame but for metal loses some thing on the low E. It could be my speakers...I'll post latter...that's my second issue...

*LP 1 was on the first album, LP 2 was on the second w/pickups from LP 1, LP 3 was used on Layla, Fillmore, and Peach. Nic said he recently read the pickups from 2 went to 3. I don't know how accurate his source is but I talked to Twiggs (the guy that beat Duane's name in fret wire in LP 3 after having it refretted) in '75.

[papersoul]

Thanks lightning,

I am just not real familiar with his tone. I saw a guy on the LP forum who said he installed the Fillmores into his LP and found the Burstbucker Pros hotter. Seems weird because my Rio grande BBQ and C-5 are hotter than the BB Pros.

I was told the Fillmore bridge is 13k and does a great Tool / A Perfect Circle tone....very clear, tight, and super thick.

I am checking out Wolftone p'ups because he will hand wind based on my needs and sound.

[Lightning]

Responce

Paper Soul,
Aenima and APC are my fav Maynard. Yea man I think the Fillmore's would do the APC tone. I haven't read up on that guy but I've listened to the CD a lot probably cause of him, even compared his lead tone to Duane's.

Kinda blipping but I bought the DD to get the Duane Fillmore tone. IMO reso peak figure's are an electronic measurement and don't portray peaks you'd see on a spectrum analyzer. There's a place on the Fillmore album where Duane's holding G on the low E (without the band playing) and I viewed it on a spectrum analyzer an the main peaks where at 400 and 4k Hz.

Similar peaks occur with the JB/DD but they are more uniformly scooped in the mid mids (below 4k). Sounds like your looking for more complex mids too. Do you have any experience with JB/DD. Assuming JB/DD and the Custom type pickups have #43 wire how could Customs have more mids than JB/DD at a lower DC resistance or maybe I'm confusing opinions of the CC compared to JB/DD.

[Lightning]

Fillmore Report

Steve Vai knows Whipping Post backwards and forwards. He played it on three different CD's with Zappa. Every queue from the Allman's at Fillmore is observed. One of the Zappa versions instead of Bett's requiem they go into a Reggie but all the queue's are dead on.

Now listen to the end of "For the Love of God" by Vai, the very end, then listen to Whipping Post on Fillmore East, at 18:20 Betts has queued Duane and Duane starts improvising in the Lydian mode, he shifts into the Lochrian / Phrygian and at 20:51 he descends through the hungry mongrel minor (one of those minors), at 21:05 he's playing the end of For the Love of God.

To me this is powerful stuff and a must test for the Fillmore bridge pickup. Man as soon as I hit the low E man it sounded like I pushed the string off the side of the finger board...my Mesa flogged out or the pickup couldn't produce the note or something. Okay try chunking it... was a Joke.

After talking it out with my pickup buddies today the conclusion is either this is a defective unit, realize they're hand feed to the spinning bobbin and they all will sound different or it's my speaker cabinet. It's a Randall 4x12 16ohm Jaguar speakers running at 4 ohms. I call it the Blue Sky cab cause it makes the Mesa sound like Duane's modded Marshall with LP 3 in the studio.

I have a tight cab but I like this one at the shed. Before the low E string issue reared its head I'm just cruising through scales and riffs and thinking "I've never heard anything like this pickup, I just makes you want to play, It's so Duane, Did I even like Duane or just his tone? Do I even like music or do I just tolerate it so I can have tone, I've spent my whole life looking for this tone, What will life be like after finding the tone? What if the set I order doesn't sound like Nic's?" That's about when I hit the low E.

So I was telling the other guitar player in my band about how the pickups produce the harmonic octaves on either side of the note your playing almost as loud as the note your playing. I ran a scale up to A on the high E (17th fret) and it sounded like he was playing harmony an octave below, and that's when it hit me, maybe the pickup is putting out tones lower than the speakers in my amp can produce.

Tomorrow Fillmore's get the Mesa issue extended range Celestion test. If this issue can be resolved my other issue is microphonics.

Nic thinks that I've been pushing the pre so hard trying to emulate that sound that I don't know how to back off. He might be right cause here's my mentality in regards to the microphonics...I cut the pickup some slack, I didn't take the pregain past 8.

[Mr. Loud]

Re: Fillmore Report

Originally posted by Lightning
So I was telling the other guitar player in my band about how the pickups produce the harmonic octaves on either side of the note your playing almost as loud as the note your playing. I ran a scale up to A on the high E (17th fret) and it sounded like he was playing harmony an octave below, and that's when it hit me, maybe the pickup is putting out tones lower than the speakers in my amp can produce.

Tomorrow Fillmore's get the Mesa issue extended range Celestion test. If this issue can be resolved my other issue is microphonics.

Nic thinks that I've been pushing the pre so hard trying to emulate that sound that I don't know how to back off. He might be right cause here's my mentality in regards to the microphonics...I cut the pickup some slack, I didn't take the pregain past 8.

Isn't that what people call double tones?

I love his tone as well. Especially the one on 'you don't love me'. My R7 with the antiquities gets close but no cigar. It misses that throaty yet a little bright mid scream I hear in duane's fillmore tone.

What I read in the Les Paul Forum was that the speakers were the critical ingredient of his tone. In fact, I have read many posts that other people were respecting (I simply don't know the members there that well) saying that his tone can be nailed with a PAF pickup, through some version of JBL speakers (sorry cannot remember).

[papersoul]

It's no tthat i want Duane/s tone. I want the tone in my head. Smooth, thick, warm, ultra fat, articulate. Sound difficult to achieve? I was set on the C-5 because the C-5 has powerful and tight lows, low mids which give the p'up a clear tone and let you get all the mids from the amp, smoth and creamy highs. Maybe I'll stick to the C-5. I just became very intrigued by what I had read about the Fillmore being what I sought.

[Lightning]

Mr. Loud,
I think I've heard it referred to as double tones, I refer to it as the harmonic series and this pickup rings out harmonic's in both directions like I've never heard before. You might call it compressed but it remains articulate.

Makes JB/DD sound very dark. After you pass 7 on the volume it sounds like you have turned on the best sounding compressor, Fuzz (sizzle), Fillmore room eq, and two octave dividers one set above and the other below.

Paper Soul does the C5 or BBQ do that? Hey man that was a sincere question.

I had accounted for the octave below as the echo off the brick wall at the Fillmore (Duane took the whole back off his cab according to Twiggs hence the tone should be obtainable with the right PAF but this pickup has it with the back on making it more portable to different rooms.

I think JBL D 120s (that's what Betts uses now), Twiggs told me and I don't remember. Guitar player in my band said he thinks they had D 120s in their Fender Twins (factory) and that's where the idea to put them in Marshall's came from...sounds reasonable but nothing hard to support the D 120 model.

Do you know the DC resistance of your Ants? Which is closer to "you Don't Love me Ant b or CC. How is that Pearly/CC combo? Can you compare it to any one?

[papersoul]

not sure what is meant by double tones or the compressor effect...but I have mentioned this to other Fillmore owners and they hadn't noticed but did say it is one of the best pickups they had ever had.

It came highly recomneded for thick lead to gorgeous clean to tight and hevy rhtyhm.....even over the C-5.

[Mr. Loud]

Papersoul,

I'd do a little discounting about what you hear in the Les Paul Forum. I have been (a lurker) there for some time now, and remember a set of cult-like followers of WCR's pickups. His pickups might be great, but those guys reply to every single thread by recommending one of his pickups. It is sort of annoying. I was asking about antiquities and magnet mods, and what I was getting instead was that I should lose my antiquities and buy fillmores. Now WCR has 3 models, it is not that bad. But when he had only one model, those people I am talking about where recommending fillmores for everything.

BTW I did not try any of WCR's pickups, so maybe those are really the best ever. I dunno. But what I know is that other brands have such followers as well. So who is right. Probably they all are, that is all those pickups are good but different.

[Mr. Loud]

Originally posted by Lightning
Mr. Loud,
I think I've heard it referred to as double tones, I refer to it as the harmonic series and this pickup rings out harmonic's in both directions like I've never heard before. You might call it compressed but it remains articulate.

Makes JB/DD sound very dark. After you pass 7 on the volume it sounds like you have turned on the best sounding compressor, Fuzz (sizzle), Fillmore room eq, and two octave dividers one set above and the other below.

Paper Soul does the C5 or BBQ do that? Hey man that was a sincere question.

I had accounted for the octave below as the echo off the brick wall at the Fillmore (Duane took the whole back off his cab according to Twiggs hence the tone should be obtainable with the right PAF but this pickup has it with the back on making it more portable to different rooms.

I think JBL D 120s (that's what Betts uses now), Twiggs told me and I don't remember. Guitar player in my band said he thinks they had D 120s in their Fender Twins (factory) and that's where the idea to put them in Marshall's came from...sounds reasonable but nothing hard to support the D 120 model.

Do you know the DC resistance of your Ants? Which is closer to "you Don't Love me Ant b or CC. How is that Pearly/CC combo? Can you compare it to any one?

Yeah that's what it was DL120's.

Considering Duane's tone on my LP studio the CC/PG combo cannot do it. CC is too round. A PG/PG combo on the other hand is too bright on the bridge, but does not have, I dunno how to call it, the headroom, or some hollowness but with some considerable depth, of the antiquities. Otherwise I like my CC, and wish it was slightly brighter.

On my 57 Reissue the bridge antiquity is like 8.50k. The neck is like 7.65k.

I got them after asking here how to get as close as possible to the beano and bloomfield's tones. The neck is great, but I think I could use more edge on the bridge. I remember someone saying that a5 magnet swaps with antiquity bridges have great results. I don't remember. Maybe it was Doc Barlo (are you reading?) who's done clips posted in the tips/clips of an antiquity bridge with an alnico 5 magnet.

To sum up, none of the bridge pickups I have gets me very close to Duane's tones. Betts' tones are in my reach, no problem there. But I am missing that mid scream of Duane's fillmore tone.