Thought of a cool new STRAT wiring....

[Kent S.]

Re: Thought of a cool new STRAT wiring....

Capacitors block DC once charged, take an isolated cap, clip the probes to it and at first you'll see it's resistance read very low, then the resistance will start to increase more and more as the cap charges, until finally the resistance reaches infinity (or a very high resistance amount). At that point the cap will be blocking the DC from passing thru it. Now I have seen some caps leak DC, but what you're describing here would be a cap that has shorted, or partially so ... That wouldn't be the case here since everything is working correctly.
What you have described here is equal to taking two resistors in series (one volume and one tone), clipping one probe to one end, and the other to the middle connection, and leaving the end of the other resistor floating unconnected ... *But it is connected to ground* you say, thus putting both resistors (pots) in parallel ... yes, but it's connected to ground by *thru a capacitor* That cap looks like an open circuit to the DC, thus the connection is not completed to put them in parallel ... the meter doesn't see the other resistor (pot). Now, it will at first ,until the cap charges ... See?

The only way I can see the meter seeing the other pot , given the wiring and probe placement that you have explained here, is if you had the common probe (black) clipped to ground, and the hot probe (red) { the polarity doesn't matter here, only given as a referrence mind you for others viewing this} clipped to the wiper of the one pot with both controls at *10*. However, that would be placing both pots in series with each other, and not in parallel.
This means that the cap is passing DC, completing the parallel circuit between the two pots, with the knobs at 10 the DC has to go thru the resistance of the pots, so that lengthens the charge time of the cap.

Try this ... Disconnect the cap from ground, and leave it disconnected ... then take the readings (that is, if you actually want to check it, otherwise just roll with it). Anyway, that's why they cap should affect the readings, I'm at a loss as to why you are getting the readings that you are; However, what you are doing with the resistor is changing the load on the pups, and altering the pot's taper. (That's for everyone else viewing). Hey keep me updated on that 7 way switch please, let me know when you hear from your friend/associate regarding it, thanks!
Maybe it can get thru this post with no syntax errors on my part ...

[beandip]

Re: Thought of a cool new STRAT wiring....

I thought of one (sorta) with a treblebleed on the middle and bridge (mines just the bridge) and a bassbleed on the neck and middle (supposed to be master). It has a 1000pf cap and a .22uF cap. thats about all I know, I got it off of www.customsounds.com in the article's section.

[dr.barlo]

Re: Thought of a cool new STRAT wiring....

Kent,

I am gonna be trying that out. And don't worry I will get the info on the 7 way switch in early July.

One thing tho, in a vol tone wiring the upper lug of the vol pot, and the lower lug of the tone pot is already grounded. So if I were to solder off the cap connecting the center lug to the ground (and since it blocks all the DC) the reading should not change. And if that cap is soldered off from the ground, then the result consists of 2 resistors in series. No? Hence my reading!

Does that make sense?

Ok I am gonna be checking more on that with my soldering iron and meter ready!

B

[Lightning]

Re: Thought of a cool new STRAT wiring....

B, I know your intent was to roll off some treble. I just glanced this thread and I don't think anyone covered this yet. If you add a master vol to a stock LP all 3 volumes nead to be 1 meg. Even with all 3 volumes at one meg in the middle pos you will lose more signal to ground than with stock, but using the PUs individually the shunt to ground is same as stock 500k so no additional loss.

*******You could add a 10 meg master volume and the resistance will still be less than the lowest resistance in parallel in the circuit.*******

[Kent S.]

Re: Thought of a cool new STRAT wiring....

Kent,

I am gonna be trying that out. And don't worry I will get the info on the 7 way switch in early July.

Thanks! ...

One thing tho, in a vol tone wiring the upper lug of the vol pot, and the lower lug of the tone pot is already grounded.

The lower lug of the tone pot (as you described earlier ... both pots with their lugs facing eastwards) being grounded would be the unused lug on the tone pot ... That doesn't get grounded in a normal tone control useage ... why do you have that lug grounded? So you are telling me that you have all three tone pot lugs connected??? One connecting to via wire to the volume pot *hot* terminal (the CCW lug of the tone pot), one connected to a grounded cap (the tone pot wiper), and one connected to ground ( the CW lug of the tone pot).

So if I were to solder off the cap connecting the center lug to the ground (and since it blocks all the DC) the reading should not change. And if that cap is soldered off from the ground, then the result consists of 2 resistors in series. No? Hence my reading!

Does that make sense?

Ok I am gonna be checking more on that with my soldering iron and meter ready!

B

If the third lug of that tone pot is grounded, then yeah it puts that pot in parallel with the volume pot, and THAT makes sense. I gotta go back and reread your original post, because I must have missed that *most important and crucial piece of info*. That changes everything ...

[Kent S.]

Re: Thought of a cool new STRAT wiring....

B, I know your intent was to roll off some treble. I just glanced this thread and I don't think anyone covered this yet. If you add a master vol to a stock LP all 3 volumes nead to be 1 meg. Even with all 3 volumes at one meg in the middle pos you will lose more signal to ground than with stock, but using the PUs individually the shunt to ground is same as stock 500k so no additional loss.

*******You could add a 10 meg master volume and the resistance will still be less than the lowest resistance in parallel in the circuit.*******

Let's look at a stock LP, it self-balances itself ....
Say you got two 10k pups, in parallel they drop to 5k ... So: (pup/load)
Single pup ...... Both pups
For stock LP:
10k/500k ...... 5k/250k ...... The ratio of source to load remains the same.
Now come the other variations ...
For three 1 Meg pots:
10k/500k ...... 5k/~333k
For two 500k pots and one 10 Meg pot:
10k/~476k ...... 5k/~499k
For two 1 Meg pots and one 10 Meg pot:
10k/~909k ...... 5k/~476k

Now something else to consider, pots are also capacitive because they form a capacitor when grounded, even though the capacitance is rather small.
Two 1Meg pots in parallel will load the same as one 500k pot; However the two 1Meg pots will most probably be a tiny, tiny bit darker than the one 500k pot. I don't think anyone would ever notice it, but I thought I'd throw that out there for fun. Oh, if you don't believe me ... take a 500k pot (not hooked to any thing) clip your leads on the CW and CCW lugs, and take a capacitance reading (remember to subtract the meter's self-capacitance from the result). Just a different slant to consider.

[dr.barlo]

Re: Thought of a cool new STRAT wiring....

Thanks! ...



The lower lug of the tone pot (as you described earlier ... both pots with their lugs facing eastwards) being grounded would be the unused lug on the tone pot ... That doesn't get grounded in a normal tone control useage ... why do you have that lug grounded? So you are telling me that you have all three tone pot lugs connected??? One connecting to via wire to the volume pot *hot* terminal (the CCW lug of the tone pot), one connected to a grounded cap (the tone pot wiper), and one connected to ground ( the CW lug of the tone pot).

I wrote that without checking. Maybe you are right, in the tone pot no lugs get grounded, no? So WTF was I saying!

Later,

B

[dr.barlo]

Re: Thought of a cool new STRAT wiring....

Now I see the confusion.

Here is the LP wiring:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/website/support/schematics/humb.html

and the tele wiring:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/website/support/schematics/std_tele.html

I have the tele wired LP style with the 50's scheme.

Now I see the merit of what you say. If the cap does not transfer DC, then the two pots are not in series, so 275K reading does not make sense.

Now I am gonna be measuring if the caps do leak DC or not. And yes no leakage at all. And I am confused.

It looks like getting down on this with my soldering iron and old pots (and recording all the readings carefully) would be fun. Gonna do that soon.

B

[Lightning]

Re: Thought of a cool new STRAT wiring....

Lew being the in veritable equipment encyclopedia that you are do you remember the Dan Armstrong 5 + 4 strat switch wiring (late 80s, maybe as late as '92 Guitar Player mag (had a pinkish red strat on the cover)).

I kinda thought about your outside coil combinations all day. I was telling my self this wiring was better than Dan's cause you didn't have to hit a switch or roll the phaser control to get to the other 4 outside coil combinations.

Dude Man...in your wiring there is no switch to get you back to strat wiring. I realize this isn't applicable on the tele, your switch is way cool there, but the blender on the strat version vs. the Dan A. mod...

I did the Dan A. mod for a friend ('63 strat restoration) and he didn't like it cause he wanted the phaser control instead of a switch? Ok he said he didn't like having to hit 2 controls to change sounds.

I said figure out which ones you like and we'd figure out how to get them all on a 5 way rotary. Whoa Kent...this was back in the early 90s, he's already sold the guitar and I only said rotary cause I didn't know about the super switch then.

Anyhow Lew, the Dan A. wiring is your switch switch able back to standard strat switching. The phaser (has nothing to do with the actual phase) is the blender control (switch) but it changes the pickup combinations available on the switch.

Weirdly somehow the blender gives a mix of both wirings associated with a given switch position. I had to do it to believe it...ex: neck/bridge parallel blended with mid/bridge series...what? Swear it works!

[Kent S.]

Re: Thought of a cool new STRAT wiring....

I wrote that without checking. Maybe you are right, in the tone pot no lugs get grounded, no? So WTF was I saying!

Later,

B

In the standard tone pot wiring the pot is used as a variable resistor, hence only two jugs are used (there may be three used, but two are tied together just so there is no open terminal ... that's considered proper design, but it ties up the third lug, and I like to use that for other things as well).
What were you saying ? I have no bloddy idea ...
However, this brings up an interesting thing ... the way you have that tone pot wired you could connect or disconnect ground to that other lug (SPST), hence load the system even more, as in a bit warmer tone, I don't know if it would be worth doing, but it's an idea to explore.
Depending how the cap is wired: Yes, a tone pot can have a lug grounded, it depends on whether or not you are hitting the cap, and then varying it's path to ground, or varying the path to a cap that has one end grounded. In this case though, the way you described it ... No, the tone control wouldn't have any of it's lugs grounded.
That would explain it though, but only if it was wired the way you stated originally ... not the way it apparently as you say it is now (going thru the cap to the wiper of the tone pot. The only thing that would happen in that case if the extra lug were grounded wold be that the tone pot would cut highs at both ends, restoring them towards the middle (or wherever resistance is equalled on both sides according to taper).

[Kent S.]

Re: Thought of a cool new STRAT wiring....

Now I see the confusion.

Here is the LP wiring:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/website/support/schematics/humb.html

and the tele wiring:

http://www.seymourduncan.com/website/support/schematics/std_tele.html

I have the tele wired LP style with the 50's scheme.

Now I see the merit of what you say. If the cap does not transfer DC, then the two pots are not in series, so 275K reading does not make sense.

Now I am gonna be measuring if the caps do leak DC or not. And yes no leakage at all. And I am confused.

It looks like getting down on this with my soldering iron and old pots (and recording all the readings carefully) would be fun. Gonna do that soon.

B

Unless it bugs you I wouldn't worying about it, if the cap was leaking that much though the tone control would function as (at least partially)as a volume control. The pots wouldn't be in series to begin with, they'd be in parallel (common probe {cold, black} to ground, sensing probe {hot, red} to volume wiper; both controls at *10*, extra tone pot lug grounded or not with a cap leaking all to hell ... Which would account for the paralleled reading you are obtaining. Series placement would be both pots at *10*, and sensing probe (hot, red) on the wiper of the tone pot, extra lug ungrounded (tone pot) and cap blocking DC.That's only the path of the current in the reading though, that does not alter how the pots are hooked in relation to one another. Just making myself clear on the difference there, and what I mean.

[Kent S.]

Re: Thought of a cool new STRAT wiring....

I said figure out which ones you like and we'd figure out how to get them all on a 5 way rotary. Whoa Kent...this was back in the early 90s, he's already sold the guitar and I only said rotary cause I didn't know about the super switch then.

FWIW, I prefer to use rotary switches, but it does eliminate a control knob ... of course you could always use the five way for other functions ... No whoa, necessary as a rotary is a logical choice as well, just depends what you want to keep, and what you want to do without.

Anyhow Lew, the Dan A. wiring is your switch switch able back to standard strat switching. The phaser (has nothing to do with the actual phase) is the blender control (switch) but it changes the pickup combinations available on the switch.

Weirdly somehow the blender gives a mix of both wirings associated with a given switch position. I had to do it to believe it...ex: neck/bridge parallel blended with mid/bridge series...what? Swear it works!

I'd like to see a schematic of that, it doesn't sound too far fetched to me ... GP has a site, I wonder though if they have old articles archieved for download like that? I've got a couple of Dan E. things, the super strat which uses two DPDT on/on switches and one DPDT on/on/on switch in the space of a standard five way, also one that has a rotary that works in conjunction with the five way ... they offer a variety of tones, however they are not blendable though.

[Lightning]

Re: Thought of a cool new STRAT wiring....

Might take a couple of days but (furiture in front of book shelves). I'm convenced Lew reads GP and was hoping he could just go right to it.