Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

[glassman]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

This debate has always fascinated me. As many of you know, my niche is in guitar amp repair and I do stock a lot of Sprague OD caps as well as a few Mallory values. I can't personally hear a difference between two identically valued capacitors but I can tell a difference between two capacitors of the same type on opposite ends of the spec range. I measure the values with a Hewlett-Packard 4261A LCR meter. I would love to measure some vintage PIO or bumblebee caps.

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I wasn't planning to post again here but, your post is probalby the most interesting for what you said and because you have the tools to measure caps.

What I did till now is just to choose the cap brand/model than sounded better to me, without thinking on it but, along to this thread I started to suspect that maybe, differences are depending on material used / batch tolerances.

Could be really interesting to get a bunch of caps, of several types/brands/models and several batches and measure them.

Maybe there is some consistence between same brand/model in middle and extreme values but, those middle values are placed in different zones of the measuring "rule" related to different types/brand/models?.

If you are able to hear differences between extreme values and, some models are in oposite extreme values, it could "technically" explain why some of us are hearing those differences and prefere some brand/model to others.

If we know what makes a PIO smoother sounding, maybe we can find a cheaper cap with same values that will save us a lot of money and, maybe, to the guitar makers.

I'd agree that the 20% tolerences between same value caps could very well be the answer....I've not actually ever measured same value caps,but have experimented with many different brands....All is cool with me and it's all just subjective anyway...

[mojoman]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

IMO the tolerance doesn't have much to do with the Tone You get from a capacitor, I measure all mine on my bench meter when comparing them so I know what they read exactly.

The materials used as the plates and dielectric in the capacitor are where the Tonal characteristics come from, the Bees are all +-10% but many have drifted do to various reasons.

[uOpt]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I guess "Tone is in the ear of the beholder" and just like tastes in food and music opinions vary.

I have tested dozens of Genuine 1950's Bumble Bees, 60's Black Beauties, Vitamin Q's and Russian K-40's which are all highly acclaimed by those who know Tone and are all paper in oil caps.

I have also tested mylar, ceramic, polypropylene, and Teflon capacitors.

There is a difference in Tone and the way they respond in a passive analog circuit. Some people can hear the difference and some can't just like some people can't hear when their guitar is out of Tune and some can.

Why does Luxe use the Russian K-40's inside their vintage Bee repro's instead of some cheap film cap??? Because PIO sound better

Gibson uses fake Bees with Polyfilm caps buried inside and they sound like crap that is why LP players swap them out for better Tone.

Think what you want, but that does not change the fact that PIO caps are simply the best for Guitar Tone bar none.

peace, jonesy

The tone deaf argument is kind of valid, but then it doesn't explain why can hear many other small differences in sounds. If I'm tone deaf, how can I tell different tremolo blocks and tailpieces. To my ears those differences are much bigger than the capacitors.

And I could tell several of my capacitors blind with the right guitar/pickups, so I do hear a difference. It is just so much smaller than even minor difference in pickups, in hardware (light tailpiece is a huge difference), and that's not even beginning to scratch the surface of -say- different treble boosters.

I don't have Orange drops, but to my ears the Hovland Musicap has the softer sound. The PIOs sold on TGP are harsher, more "forward", and the are more so than cheap ceramics.

The graph would be somewhat like this

"soft" _________________________ forward"
Musicap<------------------>ceram<--->PIO

[mojoman]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

The tone deaf argument is kind of valid, but then it doesn't explain why can hear many other small differences in sounds. If I'm tone deaf, how can I tell different tremolo blocks and tailpieces. To my ears those differences are much bigger than the capacitors.

And I could tell several of my capacitors blind with the right guitar/pickups, so I do hear a difference. It is just so much smaller than even minor difference in pickups, in hardware (light tailpiece is a huge difference), and that's not even beginning to scratch the surface of -say- different treble boosters.

I don't have Orange drops, but to my ears the Hovland Musicap has the softer sound. The PIOs sold on TGP are harsher, more "forward", and the are more so than cheap ceramics.

The graph would be somewhat like this

"soft" _________________________ forward"
Musicap<------------------>ceram<--->PIO

I agree that dozens of small changes in hardware, caps, magnet swap in pu's etc. can contribute to changes and variations in Tone. Some people can hear them and many cannot.

But I still think ceramics in general have more of an edge than PIO. The Hovland music caps are polypropylene and foil with Teflon insulation (just double-checked their web page) but a good PIO cap has that "Sparkle" don't forget a capacitor isn't doing much until you actually roll off the Tone control so any excess edge can easily be adjusted by controlling the Tone knob.

Lot's of good Tone caps out there nowadays, I think it is a matter of finding out what sounds best you. For me I like the Sprague vitamin Q's and have a pair in my SG. I have tried 4-5 sets of caps in that guitar and the .01Q's just seem to respond best in it.

[uOpt]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I agree that dozens of small changes in hardware, caps, magnet swap in pu's etc. can contribute to changes and variations in Tone. Some people can hear them and many cannot.

That wasn't my point. My point is how come I hear both the capacitor differences and the other differences, but perceive the capacitor differences as much smaller than many of the other "small" differences?

Maybe I should make a chart...

[Sporky McGuffin]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I would like to point out (probably for the third or fourth time) that the only valid listening test is a blind test - and preferably a double-blind test.

I listen to stuff as part of my job and I am painfully aware that much of the time I am unable to make a valid judgement because I can't do it in a way that rules out expectation.

It is impossible to listen to one thing, then another thing, and make valid comparisons if you know what the two things are. The human hearing system is not capable of this. Not yours, not mine, not anyone's.

I'd recount my (fairly) recent experience with blind cable tests but no-one listened last time and no-one will listen this time.

[Frankly]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

With love, Frank Lee says that He does not care what anyone thinks about this issue. And neither should you. If you want to spend the money, spend the money. If you don't, don't.

Thank you.

[ratherdashing]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Hmm, I wonder???

Can you hear a difference between.....

a 500K and a 300K pot?

Yes, and there's a good technical reason for that.

a tube amp and a ss amp?

Yes, and there's a good technical reason for that.

9's vs 10's with guitar strings?

Yes, and there's a good technical reason for that.

A crappy patch cord vs a good quality one?

"Crappy" is subjective. Hendrix and Townshend used super long curly patch cords that cut treble in a way that would cause most Internet tone snobs to barf up their lunch.

But yes, over a long enough run, I can definitely hear the difference between good and bad patch chords ... and guess what: there's a good technical reason for that.

Eric Johnson claims to be able to hear the difference between different batteries in his pedals? (not sure about that one )

Hate to break it to ya, but he's actually on to something there. Cheap batteries tend to have less consistency in voltage than their name brand counterparts. In a pedal, power supply voltage translates directly to headroom (and in an amp too, actually). Lowering the headroom of a OD/dist pedal can give it a bit of a "brown sound" quality. If you have a volt meter and a piece of metal, you can try this yourself by draining a battery down to 7 volts and comparing to a fresh one.

I think some of you have to big of egos to admit that someone else may actually be able to hear a difference when you cannot. Or you are afraid to admit you are not the only ones that have been tinkering and playing guitars for 30 years. I will be 49 Sunday and I still have the same wire cutters and needle nose pliers my Dad gave me when I was 12-13 years old. I learn new things everyday, but have not learned much from you guys except that the Testosterone level is very high at this forum and many of you are very close minded.

Carry on...

lol ... I'll be sure to ask my doctor about my testosterone problem next time I see him.

Like I said, it's totally fine if you think you hear a difference, so long as you understand there is no scientific/engineering basis for it. Then again, I doubt you care.

[ratherdashing]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I would like to point out (probably for the third or fourth time) that the only valid listening test is a blind test - and preferably a double-blind test.

I listen to stuff as part of my job and I am painfully aware that much of the time I am unable to make a valid judgement because I can't do it in a way that rules out expectation.

It is impossible to listen to one thing, then another thing, and make valid comparisons if you know what the two things are. The human hearing system is not capable of this. Not yours, not mine, not anyone's.

I'd recount my (fairly) recent experience with blind cable tests but no-one listened last time and no-one will listen this time.

I'm interested in that! Sorry I missed it. I will search for your post.

[Frankly]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

In some ways, it is a lot like women's underwear. To some, a woman can seem more desirable if she wears nice undergarments. Others either don't care or cannot tell. Untimately, there is no objective way to prove that a woman in a thong is sexier than the same woman in a pair of giant white Wal-Mart 3 for $10 bloomers. A sexy thong won't turn Rosie O'Donnell into Delta Burke, nor will bad undies turn Ms. Delta Burke into Rosie O'Donnell. Yet, knowing Delta Burke is wearing something special just adds something extra to the package.

Thank you.

[Sporky McGuffin]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I'm interested in that! Sorry I missed it. I will search for your post.

Essentially I had 4 cables; a Pete Cornish, another really posh expensive one (I forget the name but will have a look), a cheapo Piranha and a Klotz La Grange one I made myself. I tried switching between them and couldn't tell 'em apart so recorded as close to the same thing as I could with each in turn (guitar/cable/amp only), randomised (with a log I didn't read until afterwards) the filenames and then listened back.

The $60 Pete Cornish was indistinguishable from the $10 Piranha. The $200 posh one was indistinguishable from the $25ish La Grange one. There was an audible but tiny difference between those two pairs.

As far as I know I'm the only person on a guitar forum to have actually blind-tested cables and posted the results. Everyone else just insists that there is or isn't a difference, and gets quite angry if anyone disagrees. This does not, of course, make me a better person than anyone else, and it certainly doesn't make me popular.

[Sporky McGuffin]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

They were all quite short - 15' at a guess. All pretty much the same length.

You do make a valid point.

[Sporky McGuffin]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I hope I will never have any sexual experience with a cap.

Ah - you've never tried a paper-in-oil then.

[Sporky McGuffin]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Once more, Sir. I don't THINK that I hear a difference, I HEAR a difference.

Blind testing? Otherwise you can't reliably judge it.

If it worths to lay it down one, let me know, dude; I'm still at time to grab one from the LP.

I use the orange drops because they're pretty cheap, a nice colour, and easy to work with physically.