Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

[Sporky McGuffin]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

What was posted in post #69 is the most we will get from all this discussion, IMHO. So, end of posting from my side.

Except that it's just plain inaccurate - tone caps are very much part of the circuit.

[Stratman]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Someone to call the local circus, they forgot a clown here.

It's meant to add some humor - you guys are getting to serious over a small matter.....

[uOpt]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

WARNING:
There is not known/applicable scientific/engineering reason that could make two different caps (brand/model) of same value to make tonal differences, when used in pasive filter circuit, out of the signal path.

This is garbage, too, or rather is is perfectly accurate but you mistook it.

Capacitors, in particular the "old style construction" capacitors that guitarists are so fond of, have a whole range of electrical properties other than just a pure capacitance. And that makes it vary depending on how the input wave is shaped and that causes audible differences.

You are a typical victim of oversimplified physics syndrome. An advanced physicist knows that no electrical component labeled "I am an <x>" (let say for <x> being a diode) is absolutely free of electrical properties of <y> and <z> (let's say capacitance and resistance) if you just poke it with different enough input signals.

I am all set of for a blind test if anyone if up for it. My pickup harness with the selectable capacitors is a circuit outside the guitar. You can flip the switches behind my back as I'm playing and we record. You keep a log of what position you had chosen for which clip, I'll listen to the recordings later and tell you which capacitor it was. I'll be able to hear the Musicap easily, and one of the ceramics in there is one that I hand-picked to read the same capacitance as the Musicap.

Notice that I do need the record and re-listen thing because the difference (with the pot at 10 anyway) is so small that I cannot hear it while playing.

[uOpt]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

That usually happens when you are fine EQ-ing during mastering phase, where subtile differences are really important. Read Bob Katz for more info.
Remember that differences heard in caps of same value and different materials/makers are really subtile.

But that is obviously talking about taste.

Here we are talking about audible or not.

Very different things.

[uOpt]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Wait, are you saying the capacitor isn't present when the tone pot is at "10"? It is.

We might have a language problem here.

In general, you directly said that a capacitor of capacitance value "<x>" has no other electrical properties, right? That is what I object to.

[ErikH]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

The tone cap is part of the circuit, absolutely. Lew and others never said it wasn't. What they DID say was that the sound coming out of the other end of the cap is going to ground, never to be heard from again.

Think about it. The signal goes in one end, the cap/resistor combo filters highs to ground out the other end. Where is the output on the cap/resistor combo where the affected signal could be heard? There isn't one. If there was, then clipping out the tone cap/pot would kill the signal output from the guitar.

The signal being heard when the tone pot is rolled off is not from the tone cap but what is left after the highs have been filtered out through the tone cap to ground.

This is basic electronics.

[Sporky McGuffin]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I don't sign off that the caps are out of the signal path, since I hear differences.

To you and UOpt this is inaccurate.
To Lew, StratDeluxe and some others is accurate.

This isn't a matter of opinion - the tone cap is part of the circuit. No two ways about it.

[ErikH]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Read what answers Rick Turner (https://forum.seymourduncan.com/show...61&postcount=6) in Lew's answer. Maybe I have a big issue with the language (perfectly possible). Some others came later, read in specially the first two pages.

ErikH, The point that you are highlighting was so clear to me that I didn't expect it . For sure, the caps just throw highs to ground but, they are affecting the signal path, since they are removing some frequencies and letting some others living in the signal.

What I said is just that I heard the sprague orange drops as sounding harsher on the high end then, someone said that he was 100% positive that no one can hear the differences because of the mentionated text.

So, my answer was that maybe, what each cap is able to filter isn't the same and maybe, they let different frequencies unfiltered in the signal path. If the sprage orange drops were unable to throw to ground some very high frequencies then, the remanent signal would sound harsher...


Then, started all that no-sense discussion: i can hear it / you cannot hear it and the physical / engineering / scientific answers.



Now, we are back to the beginning...
I think, I am starting to feel ill.


Then, to me, the different materials used with different physical propierties should affect the way as each cap works and, could be the reason why some caps "forget" to throw to ground some harshing frequencies.
I cannot hear differences between certain caps and hear differences between certain others. I said that I prefere ceramic to sprague and vitamin q to sprague orange drops and any of those way more to those greens that come often in importation guitars.

That's exactly what I am saying from the very beginning.
Maybe, even now, my limited english will not allow me to express myself in the right way. I appologize if don't succeed.

I totally get what you are saying and it makes sense. There is the understanding of certain terms that you are missing though. When Mr. Turner says "literally not in the signal path", he means that the signal goes in one end of the cap and then to ground. However, that cap is part of the circuit just as much as the volume pot is part of the circuit. A circuit and signal path are 2 different things. A circuit is the sum of all the parts that make it work. A signal path is the road the audio signal takes to get from point A to point B.

We're speaking the same language, just different terminology.

All good.

[MattPete]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Read "Mastering: The Art and the Science" by Bob Katz. I think an authorized opinion will worths it way more than mine. You will find there the pychoacoustic explanation.
Sorry for my english, when i said CANNOT, wanted to say WOULDN'T (or shouldn't or whatever that is correct english).

Psychophysics feeds my family, and I can think of no reason a rotary switch test wouldn't be able to reveal a difference.

[MattPete]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

...

Think about it. The signal goes in one end, the cap/resistor combo filters highs to ground out the other end. Where is the output on the cap/resistor combo where the affected signal could be heard?

It's filtering. What's remaining after the signal goes to ground is the sound (er, signal) you're hearing.

Lew was innacurate in his description of whether or not the cap is affects the circuit (it does, otherwise the tone control wouldn't work). Having said that, I agree with him that I can't hear a ****ed thing.

[marvar]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I can't believe this thread is still going!!

[ErikH]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

It's filtering. What's remaining after the signal goes to ground is the sound (er, signal) you're hearing.

Lew was innacurate in his description of whether or not the cap is affects the circuit (it does, otherwise the tone control wouldn't work). Having said that, I agree with him that I can't hear a ****ed thing.

Correct, it is filtering, and you are hearing the signal after highs are bled to ground, but you're not hearing what comes out the other end of the tone cap. That is what I am saying and is why a vast majority can't hear a darn difference. It's because you can't hear what is coming out the other end of the cap.

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Let's all move on now! This is getting pretty boring!

[mojoman]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

Hermetico- It's no use man, some people can appreciate fine wine and some can't. It's the same here with capacitors, if hey can't hear, can't tell, don't care, there is nothing you can say that will change their minds.

[ErikH]

Re: Anyone NOT like Sprauge Orange Drop capacitors?

I am not getting you. Who wants to hear what is being thrown to ground?. We were talking about the signal and how the change of a cap affects to what you hear, I think.
Do you want to say that most of us haven't an ear sensible enough to differentiate some high-end frequencies range and then, we cannot hear what is being substracted to the signal?

Language barrier. I can't explain it any simpler than I have. Time to move on anyway as stated.