$12,000 Really?

[AudioWonderland]

Re: $12,000 Really?

I suppose the better question is would you honestly buy a $12k set of pickups, sight unseen, from ebay?

They may find each other on ebay but I doubt that transaction happens through Paypal. Guys with that kind of loose change are not stupid. They will want to inspect and verify etc

[metalmachine]

Re: $12,000 Really?

At that price they better make my wife like having sex with me

[blindedbysilence]

Re: $12,000 Really?

At that price they better make my wife like having sex with me

[LtKojak]

Re: $12,000 Really?

stuff like is for a guy that has a 59 Burst with the original electronics thats worth 150-175k but with 12k worth of parts owuld be back up to 200-225k...

there are guys out there willing to pay and there are a lot more guys out there willing to pay a quater mill for a 50's Burst than there are 50's Bursts to go around!

There were 1869 'bursts made in 1959. Only 13 are not accounted for.

Most of them were bought by an association of japanese collectors in late '70s, early '80s, when they bought everything from the USA, including the Empire State building, as means to keep an investment from lose its value over time. (If you ask me, those purchases were made to laundry some Yakuza's money, but that's another chapter altogether)

If you wanna buy a '59 'burst, just call Ishibashi. They'll hook you up with the broker in no time flat! Although the only seven vergin '59 'bursts that would generate the highest bid are in Japan and most likely change hands between themselves, as those were bought with corporate money and will move only if a major economic crash will occur in Japan.

Looking at the data, I'd say that the elusive '59 without PAFs to justify such a purchase is just as plausible as to meet the Yeti doing surf in Barbados.

HTH,

[ratherdashing]

Re: $12,000 Really?

Actually he is an ordained minister of some sort, so the "Reverend" is legit.


Now, as for the "value/worth"; market supply and buyer demand merely affect the selling-price. Value and Worth are not affected by supply or demand in this instance.

1. As historical artifacts, they have Value in what they represent to the evolution of the electromagnetic pickup, not only the improvements in design it brought, but also those it led to. Enough have been dissected to glean all the knowledge possible; wire gauge, number of wraps, variations in the windings (symmetry and number), materials used, etc.

2. Given their age and the fact that physical waves of vibrational energy have passed through them for so long, they have Worth limited to the guitar they've been in for so many years.

To quantify that:
Wax melts. If wax melts while the coil strands are moving, wax enters the empty spaces of the coil. As the wax cools, it stays where it is, and the coils are pushed ever-so-slightly out of their factory wind. As the years go by and the guitar is played by the same person in the same style repeatedly, the windings and wax settle into the mixture dictated by the physical wave patterns they have been bombarded with for 20-odd years or more.
Therefore, the pickup takes on a specific tonal response that is not measured in Ohms or DC resistance.

i.e. If you pass that guitar to a polar-opposite player, he'll denounce the tone of it. Hand it back to the original owner and he'll swear it's the same old guitar he's used for years with the same Heavenly tone he knows and loves.


Ergo, those pickups are not worth $12k because their Value as historical artifacts in regards to the design, construction, and evolution of the electromagnetic pickup is null, being that the information is redundant.
They are not "worth" $12k because they are not in the guitar they've been in since 1959.

They are being sold for $12k. If someone buys them, then they will have sold for $12k. $12k will then be the going-rate for that pair of useless, tone-dead pickups.

All you've done is explain why they're not worth $12k to you personally. That's fine, as long as you understand that your opinion doesn't drive the market value of these pickups.

So ... what does drive the market value? Sale price. That's the pure, honest definition of "market value" - the amount of money you can expect to get if you sell the item.

If they sell for $12k, they're worth $12k. If they sell for $6k, they're worth $6k. If they sell for a nickel ... you get the idea. Actual sale price is not just someone's opinion of what the thing is worth, it's their opinion backed up with real money. It's also the best, most reliable predictor of how much the same thing will sell for in the future. Sale price is fact, not opinion.

Or, to put it more succinctly: money talks.

[DrNewcenstein]

Re: $12,000 Really?

And yet by the same token it is personal opinion that artificially inflates the very same market value.
"I have more money than brains, what else can I buy? Oooh, a 1959 Gibson Les Paul! Hmmm. He won't sell it for less than $300k. New ones are $3k. But, I find myself falling for the hype of "they don't make 'em like they used to..." and "this is the Puritanical Vision that defines "the way it was meant to be" and "it's not a musical instrument meant to be played, worn out, and completely trashed after 30+ years on the road, but rather an investment like gold, currency, or pork bellies", so I must skip adding more gold, currency, or pork bellies to my portfolio and purchase something to hang in a bulletproof display case or lock in an airtight vault under perfect atmospheric conditions so I can resell it later for double/triple/multiple....SOLD!"

You get enough of these people together and they convince the unwashed masses (musicians) that a 1959 Les Paul is really "worth" a million dollars.

[Coma]

Re: $12,000 Really?

the flip side of this is I just cant see pick up production has gone backwards in the last 50 years with all the people chucking their ideas into the hat .

Do people really believe the 1st run of humbuckers from the 50's were the best it was ever going to get and its a all backwards step from there ? Some magical fairy dust was all used up and SD and BKP and all the others are just trying to recapture that magical sound thats unatainable now ?

These PU's should have some inflated value due to their antique value but dont tell me they sound better than whats out there now

Beat me to it!

Way I figure, pickups changed for a reason, same reason you can now get brass blocks for your Floyd, or noiseless SCs for your strat, or why you can get a hot-rodded amp that sounds like a thundering death machine instead of a scrappy old bluesbox.

Each style of music has it's own sound, and as the genres have changed over the years, so has the demand for the way instruments and amps sound. For being a group of people mad about modding (I, for one, can't stand the idea of playing a stock guitar), a lot of guitarists seem to have a huge hard-on for finding that original tone, or that original piece of gear, or whatever. Which I guess is fine, but the way people conjure up voodoo 'round those old things, you'd think they were the ultimate solution for everything musically. Gear evolution, however, have shown us the opposite.

[Aceman]

Re: $12,000 Really?

There were 1869 'bursts made in 1959. Only 13 are not accounted for.

Most of them were bought by an association of japanese collectors in late '70s, early '80s, when they bought everything from the USA, including the Empire State building, as means to keep an investment from lose its value over time. (If you ask me, those purchases were made to laundry some Yakuza's money, but that's another chapter altogether)

If you wanna buy a '59 'burst, just call Ishibashi. They'll hook you up with the broker in no time flat! Although the only seven vergin '59 'bursts that would generate the highest bid are in Japan and most likely change hands between themselves, as those were bought with corporate money and will move only if a major economic crash will occur in Japan.

Looking at the data, I'd say that the elusive '59 without PAFs to justify such a purchase is just as plausible as to meet the Yeti doing surf in Barbados.

HTH,

Hunter's Grandfather is rolling over in his grave.

[IanBallard]

Re: $12,000 Really?

There was no wax to "melt and settle" in a 1959 PAF....

[metalmachine]

Re: $12,000 Really?

the flip side of this is I just cant see pick up production has gone backwards in the last 50 years with all the people chucking their ideas into the hat .

Do people really believe the 1st run of humbuckers from the 50's were the best it was ever going to get and its a all backwards step from there ? Some magical fairy dust was all used up and SD and BKP and all the others are just trying to recapture that magical sound thats unatainable now ?

These PU's should have some inflated value due to their antique value but dont tell me they sound better than whats out there now

this exactly

[Zhangliqun]

Re: $12,000 Really?

To quantify that:
Wax melts. If wax melts while the coil strands are moving, wax enters the empty spaces of the coil. As the wax cools, it stays where it is, and the coils are pushed ever-so-slightly out of their factory wind. As the years go by and the guitar is played by the same person in the same style repeatedly, the windings and wax settle into the mixture dictated by the physical wave patterns they have been bombarded with for 20-odd years or more.
Therefore, the pickup takes on a specific tonal response that is not measured in Ohms or DC resistance.

Unless you leave it in the car on a summer day and the temp gets up to at least 140 F, the wax doesn't melt. Nor do the sound waves move the wire around, unless it's unpotted.

[Zhangliqun]

Re: $12,000 Really?

Supply-demand is a bogus concept. Doesn't actually work that way. The world is a multi-variate place influenced by real and perceived factors interacting in complex ways.

A million real and imagined things affect supply and a million real and imagined things affect demand, but it's still just supply and demand. All else is commentary thereon.

[IanBallard]

Re: $12,000 Really?

All value and exchange is subjective.... otherwise nobody would bother exchanging one thing they want less than another. One guy will feel his $12,000 is less valuable than the PAF's and will exchange it. Another guy will prefer a car, or a vacation, saving the money, etc.

There is no "objective values" unless you live in a total dictatorship where free choice and exchange is illegal.

[BRHGM]

Re: $12,000 Really?

Vintage guitars rarely fetch $100,000 unless they were owned by a famous guitarist or a celebrity. I would have that PAF verified by an independant expert like George Gruhn who has actually sold $100,000 guitars. Vintage PAF pickups are a crap shoot. Sometimes they are great and sometimes they suck. If they sounded so great, they would likely have remained in the guitar. Then again in the 1970's people were ripping out pickups and putting Super Distortions in their Les Pauls. I wouldn't pay $12,000 for a pickup that sucks.

[DoronEsh]

Re: $12,000 Really?

... (If you ask me, those purchases were made to laundry some Yakuza's money, but that's another chapter altogether) ...
HTH,

You should know what you're talking about, as you've got a lollipop in your mouth ...