So a 0.022s a 0.022s a 0.022 right? I'm not so sure anymore, sure i think it's fair to say that the change in materials used will effect the tone! I have a polyester film cap sprague 0.22 a ceramic disk cap (RadioShack) 0.022 and a Russian NOS PIO 0.022 and a Vitamin Q nos pio and I can almost promise you everyone here will pick the Vitamin Q
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Vitamin Q 0.022
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
In reality, a capacitor's actual value and tolerance makes a difference (a generally small one though) much more than capacitor type (which I consider to be negligible). If you want to change something about the tone control, change the parts based on their values, tapers, and tolerances. fc=1/(2πRC) doesn't change because you used a ceramic disk capacitor instead of an orange drop capacitor. A resistor measuring 17 Kilohms and a capacitor measuring .001 microfarads is always going to have a frequency cutoff of 9360Hz, regardless if the capacitor is paper-in-oil, sprague, orange drop, etc. I very much doubt anyone can truly hear a difference between capacitor types in a double-blind test scenario.
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
The problem I found with the cheap ceramics is that they don't discharge consistently, so effectively the value is constantly changing, which in turn does something really muddy to the resulting sound. In my testing, it somehow managed to blur detail in the notes of chords being played.
So basically I throw them out, not because they are ceramic, but because they are practically defective.
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by beaubrummels View PostThe problem I found with the cheap ceramics is that they don't discharge consistently, so effectively the value is constantly changing, which in turn does something really muddy to the resulting sound. In my testing, it somehow managed to blur detail in the notes of chords being played.
So basically I throw them out, not because they are ceramic, but because they are practically defective.
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by Myaccount876 View PostI very much doubt anyone can truly hear a difference between capacitor types in a double-blind test scenario. [/FONT]
I buy Sprague or Mallory, whatever is cheaper and in stock.-Chris
Originally posted by John Suhr
“Practice cures most tone issues”
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by WhoGivesAPluck View Postsure i think it's fair to say that the change in materials used will effect the tone!"It keeps you fit - the alcohol, nasty women, sweat on stage, bad food - it's all very good for you." -Bon Scott
"Let me put it this way: the 5150 will treat
you better than any girlfriend, because it screams louder, it's easier to pick up, and it shuts up when you take your plug out." -Rip Glitter
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by Edgecrusher View PostThe signal that goes through the cap is sent to ground and is not part of your audio, So how can the materials effect tone?
If there really is a difference, I just wish the people who claim there is a difference could do better than "I definitely hear a a difference!" and explain a) what the difference is, and b) the technical nature of the difference, because then we could at least agree that there is a difference at all, and move on to the more mundane issue of whether that difference is worth $5.
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by DreX View PostIn theory, the tonal goodness would owe to what the capacitor doesn't send to ground
But I do agree that people "want" to hear a difference after they spend 15 bucks for a cap.
You can find many times people describe the difference but its usually in extremely vague terms like "more naturally organic highs""It keeps you fit - the alcohol, nasty women, sweat on stage, bad food - it's all very good for you." -Bon Scott
"Let me put it this way: the 5150 will treat
you better than any girlfriend, because it screams louder, it's easier to pick up, and it shuts up when you take your plug out." -Rip Glitter
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
This discussion occurs regularly and is almost always polarising. I have a slightly different take on things ....
If you're upgrading a cheap, unspectacular guitar on the cheap, it's probably not worth investing $10-20 for a tone cap that may not make any audible difference to your ears. However, once someone is looking at upgrading a good guitar with expensive pickups, it's usually logical to make sure that the pots and wiring are also up to a good standard, so one might then spend more on new pots, wiring harness, switches etc. After all, if you invest in $200-300 pickups, it would be silly to compromise them by using poor quality pots, switches and wiring, surely ?
At that point, it's not a big deal to invest in a very good tone cap, so that regardless of what the conventional wisdom may be, and regardless of what you think you hear, you know you've installed the best cap along with the best pots, switches, wiring and pickups.
All my guitars have Sprague Vitamin Q caps. Can i hear the difference ? I don't know, the caps were installed at times when the guitars got new pickups and improved electronics. But i sleep fine at night knowing my guitars have the best parts in them, no compromises have been made, they sound brilliant and there is no need for further consideration; now i can simply play them.
And considering each guitar probably had $300+ spent on upgrades, $10 for a tone cap is a very small percentage of the total, so in my mind, the bad decision would have been to NOT upgrade the cap.
No doubt most people will not agree with my approach and would prefer to continue debating the issue. Personally i think it's worth $10 to just move beyond that and get back to playing.
For those who'd prefer to continue debating, just get some Wima red-box caps. Cheap and virtually boutique.Lumbering dinosaur (what's a master volume control?)
STALKER NO STALKING !
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by crusty philtrum View PostAnd considering each guitar probably had $300+ spent on upgrades, $10 for a tone cap is a very small percentage of the total, so in my mind, the bad decision would have been to NOT upgrade the cap.
It's probably more accurate to say that if you have enough disposable income to blow on an expensive guitar, then you can probably afford to gamble another $50 on upgrades that might or might not make any difference.
Another not-entirely-bad reason to only upgrade an expensive guitar is because if the guitar is otherwise vintage correct, with nitro finish, steel hardware, correct lumber, etc. , then there's something to be said for completeness and authenticity.
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by DreX View PostThat sounds a lot like sunk-cost fallacy; "because I've already spent a lot, I might as well spend a little more", but a waste of money is still a waste of money.
As for " It's probably more accurate to say ..." .... ummm .... i was expressing my own views, so i'm not sure how youy can tell me, or anyone else, what is a more accurate version of their/my own thoughts.
Unless of course you feel you know better than everybody else.
You might like to tell us about your experiences auditioning tone caps of various materials instead of the usual nit-picking, penny-scrimping stance you usually assume. i.e. an opinion of your own, rather than telling me that my opinion "could be more accurate".
Or you could post some clips of your playing that will convince us that we would be wise to abandon our own experiences, opinions and ways of doing things because your ways are simply better than anybody elses and it shows in your amazing playing and tone.
Or quite simply post anything that gives people some reason to give any credit to what you have to say, rather than telling people that their own opinions/thoughts/ways/experiences are misguided and probably wrong.Lumbering dinosaur (what's a master volume control?)
STALKER NO STALKING !
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Spending more on a cap for better tolerance is a fine idea +/- %1 , %5 and %10 are a pretty large difference. Yet again I will say what they are made of , notsomuch. Double blind test , no one in this universe can tell which is which. Things that are undetectable to the human ear get a lot of talk in online forums.Originally posted by OinkusI had Big Flannel over here the other night , cleaned up his Tele and did some setup on it , took out the camera and set it down on the desk. I am easily distrac
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Big round of applause for Crusty.Originally Posted by DreX
I don't mean to be a jerk, but some people bring out my compartmentalized rage, and I think that's their idea of victory. I wouldn't bother asking people to be civil on the internet though, just hide them in my basement and move on. Call the authorities any time you feel it necessary.
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Re: Vitamin Q 0.022
Originally posted by crusty philtrum View PostAs i've said, in my own cases, it would have been a potential waste of money NOT to have invested a few percent more when making costly upgrades. I prefer to go into a guitar once, upgrade once to the highest level, and then get back to what it's all about .... playing. I'm not a guitar scientist, and don't want to be.
That being what it is, from what I've read, it's the view of electricians that the difference in capacitor dielectric mostly matters in high-voltage scenarios, and was more of a concern back when vacuum tubes were much more common.
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