High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

[jon the art guy]

Re: High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

I can believe no on has mentioned carvin.

I've given up on preaching about Carvins. It's a rare species and a lot of people compare it in unfavorable light to stuff (doesn't sound as vintage-rock as a Marshall so it sucks because it's too high-gain, but it's not as high-gain as a Mesa so it sucks yadda yadda yadda) so nobody wants them...which is fine with me. Keeps the prices down.

[RStabler]

Re: High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

Actually, there are a lot of good options for you nowadays. My Blackstar Series One 200 has amazing cleans. I've tried a few Engls that are fantastic clean. As everybody has stated, Mesas have very high-quality cleans. I've had a couple of Fryettes that are great also. As for Peavey, you can try just about anything that's not a 6505.

Although I haven't tried any personally, I'm told EVH 5150s are really nice, too.

I don't have much experience with Marshall or Orange, so I can't really speak on that.

[jackson111]

Re: High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

I know I john I used to be in thst catagory but after playing my new x100b carvin has one of the best amps I have played. Kinda sad that I overlooked them for so long.

[allbutromeo]

Re: High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

I'm sorry, I should've classified the high gain I like. I like the hard rock pushing almost heavy metal but can also be used for punk rock. I like low end with natural sounding highs that don't sound like the recto fuzz fest.

This is the type of music I use the mkv for, the fat mode on channel one is one of the best clean sounds I've ever got from any amp I've played, and channel 2 on crunch or even edge mode is great for hard rock and punk. I do occasionally use ch3 mkiv mode for hardcore/metal sounds I just don't play that style as often

[Edgecrusher]

Re: High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

Sorry for the double post

Just as an FYI if you ever double post again you can click "edit post" and in there is an option to delete the extras

[hydro]

Re: High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

At the risk of beating the Mesa Boogie horse to death, they did just release a mini (25 watt) MK V head. This will probably be my next amp -

[allbutromeo]

Re: High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

Thanks for the info, I'm still new here

[Edgecrusher]

Re: High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

Thanks for the info, I'm still new here

Its all good no worries

[hydro]

Re: High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

One other comment to make here is that if you want great cleans - in my opinion, you have to go there first; that is, find an amp you love with great cleans, then work on the dirt. If you want your gain from the amp but the gain channel (assuming a 2 ch. amp) is not quite getting you there, throw a boost or tube screamer (with the distortion dialed down, so it is more like a dirty boost) in front of it. Or an EQ pedal for example. My point being that getting the cleans right comes first, because you can't fix an amp with crummy cleans -- if that makes any sense. I'm almost about to say just buy an old Fender Bassman or a Twin or Deluxe Reverb and put pedals in front of it until you find your sound. If I wasn't happy with my Mesa Boogie amps I think that's what I'd do.

Cleans are sooooo hard to quantify, but when you hear them you just know. My 67 Princeton Reverb has it, it's just magic, and once you hear it you can't unhear it...

[Cruiserman]

Re: High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

Have you considered or tried a Seymour Duncan Convertible 100 if you can find one (combo or head) channel 1 (in standard config) is so clean it can cut through anything with crystal clarity but with great overdrive control on 2nd channel. I've had one since 85 and strikes fear into many a listener :-)

[Bludave]

Re: High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

I honestly have no idea if an amp like this even exists, but I like high gain metal and punk rock yet at the same time I like great cleans that fenders and egnaters have. Unfortunately, high gain amps have lame clean channels and vintage amps are not high gain. I always thought of the idea of getting a vintage amp then getting a high gain pedal but pedals are such hit and miss.

Have you not heard of Bogner? I have a Shiva and it may not be as high gain as one would like(The Ubbershell or the Xtacy might fit your liking better) but I think the cleans on the Shiva are as good if not better then my Fenders...

[crusty philtrum]

Re: High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

One other comment to make here is that if you want great cleans - in my opinion, you have to go there first; that is, find an amp you love with great cleans, then work on the dirt.
Cleans are sooooo hard to quantify, but when you hear them you just know. My 67 Princeton Reverb has it, it's just magic, and once you hear it you can't unhear it...

I agree.

I have always held the opinion that there is no such thing as the ideal clean and dirty in one amp. If you want both at a high level, you need two amps. One sound will always compromise the other. I've been playing for over 40 years and working on valve amps for over 20, and that's only served to reinforce my views and what i hear.

Most of the contemporary sounds i hear that are classified as 'cleans' are simply sterile, lifeless noises that aren't dirty. Sadly, in today's guitar world, clean seems to be more of an effect. Most guitar sounds seem to be coming from a perspective of a very narrow range of emotions ... anger, aggression, doom etc. and things like beauty are neglected or forgotten. This has caused most amps to be produced to focus on making ugly noises to sell to the masses, and most of the guitar world has actually seriously compromised music as a whole.

If you want both clean and dirty without pedals, you need more than one amp. It's that simple. Anything else is a compromise.

(not to mention that playing clean is an artform in itself, it's not just 'turning the dirt off').

[Boogie Bill]

Re: High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

I have to agree with Hydro and Crusty on this.

But, there's something else to point out. I really don't think there is one amp that can do it all, though FOR ME the Mark III-IV-V is about as close as it gets. I'm not a metal guy, who plays 7 or eight strings in dropped tunings, but I don't foresee a gig that I would do in any sized venue that the Mark V couldn't handle...with my current band.

And this is a key point: the amp that I've selected for my current G/K/B/D soft-rock/pop/classic rock/blues/country/jazz band might not be what I would choose for a two-guitar hard rock band. Or if I were doing a power trio. My philosophy is that the gear should serve the song. I select a 2HB guitar for my BB King stuff, because that's the SOUND I want. Other songs work best with a Strat. There are just some songs that scream "Marshall", and some where a Marshall would be totally inappropriate. So, the instrumentation in the band is very important, the parts you play are important (Are you strictly a rhythm player; do you do fills; are you the main soloist?), and the music itself, the size of the venues your will be playing at--these are all important criteria for selecting the right amp.

I've seen guys go out and get the "Skull Krusher 100" stack for their metal garage band, and then wonder why they got kicked out of their Praise and Worship band. Truth.


==================

I did a single act for many years, so having a great clean tone was the most important thing. Rarely if ever could I play with anything other than a VERY mild overdrive to accompany my voice for the Top 40 and Top Country songs I was doing. When I started playing with a rock band again (G/G/B/D), it took about two practice sessions to realize I was going to need a different amp. (And by the second gig, I was looking for a different guitar, too!) My needs changed--the gigs changed; the music changed. I went through a bunch of Fenders and Marshalls before finding the big Mesa Mark III half stack, and that was like a light going off. That was when I found the tone I'd been looking for.

Some would say that the Mesa Mark III clean tone isn't as good as say a Fender, but I would disagree. It IS different; but on stage it works very, very well because of how it is voiced. The R2 channel can produce some good crunch tones (though it's NOT a Marshall-tone as Mesa's advertising department would have you believe), and the LEAD channel is just heaven. The lead tone I was looking for was right there--let me tell you it was so liberating to be able to just dump three dirt boxes that weren't cuttin' it and wind up with better tones in the process. And I started becoming a better player, and it happened relatively quickly. I got a lot more confidence in my abilities, and I started getting a lot of compliments on my tone. (Which really pissed off the other guitar player in the band, because he was "The Lead Guitarist"!!! LOL! He could play circles around me, but he had no taste, no touch, and no tone--even with some very expensive guitars and amps.)

And what I've discovered is that with the G/K/B/D band I have now, the Mesa clean tones work perfectly. And I have to play a lot of squeaky clean parts with this music, both rhythm and solos. While they don't have the deep bass of say, a Fender Twin, that makes for a cleaner mix. My parts aren't crowding the keyboard parts or the bass parts and turning everything into mush. (Okay, now we CAN score one for the Mesa ad guys--they were right about this, lol!)

Odds are, if you are going to have only one amp, it will entail some kind of compromise. If you're playing your dropped-tuning metal stuff with a Triple Recto live, you probably don't need to have an A/B rig with a Twin Reverb to play your clean parts...the cleans on the Recto will probably suffice and get you by. On the other hand, when you go into the studio, you can overdub your clean part using the studio's Deluxe or Princeton Reverb. You often won't need a channel switcher when recording and over-dubbing tracks.

And remember, what works in the bedroom often doesn't sound that great on stage. And sometimes vice-versa. For me, the stage is the real crucible of tone. Play as many amps as you can; rent-to-buy if you must. Try to buy with a return policy.

This is one of those great moments in your life where you really get to define who you are...as a player and as a person. Are you willing to spend the dough to get a top-notch amp, or will you settle for something lesser? Do you value clean tones, or do you always have the amp set at least a little dirty? Do you like explosive headroom, or the compressed tone of a pushed amp? Do you want your OD and distortion tones from a tube amp, or from a transistor box? Do you need a three-amp midi system with a custom Bradshaw rig to switch it? Gonna buy a van to carry it in?

What do you value? What can you compromise on? What can you afford? Recognize that these values will probably change over time. In the end, you get to choose--so it really helps to know yourself; you get to live with the consequences. You will make mistakes along the way.

It is a journey of self-discovery, so enjoy the ride.

Bill

[jon the art guy]

Re: High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

As above for me too. I like kt88s and a saggy rectifier.

[hydro]

Re: High gain amp with Vintage cleans?

This thread is valuable to me; I am a dude who really values both great cleans and great distortion because of the nature of the stuff I play. Crusty's perspective is interesting because to be honest, I never was in a situation where I relied on power amp distortion from big ol' tube amps cranked all the way up; I used dirt boxes or gain stages in the amp.

Recently, the closest I got to this approach was borrowing an old Silvertone 1484 that was pushed into breakup, and I was like

whooooaaaa

I tried to buy the amp even though it shocked the bajeezus out of me, the dude wouldn't sell it. It wasn't as practical as my 5:50 but damn did it sound good. As I have learned more about this stuff, I have begun to understand the value of things like boost pedals, and lo and behold, my guitar's volume knob -- which I usually had all the way up, chimp style and never touched except to mute.

In the end the advice crusty and Bill gave really resonates with me, because they both emphasize the tradeoff between practicality and ideal tone. When you record you have the luxury of picking the perfect amp for the application - but live you need a versatile, reliable all-round amp that will get you close enough to get the job done (unless you are a big touring act with roadies and techs, etc.) For me that practical amp is my Express 5:50 - yet I like it enough that I will probably end up recording with it also, and supplementing with some other amps as needed.

Another relatively recent epiphany for me is that high gain isn't all it's cracked up to be, especially for my playing style. Zep and even early Sabbath -- and especially AC/DC - when I *really* listened closely - a lot of that stuff isn't really all that saturated. It's HEAVY though, and a lot of that comes from tone, attack, dynamics and playing style, not just gain.

Listen to Clapton playing "Had to cry today" when he was in Blind Faith. That is a heavy ass riff, but it's not over saturated. That riff (and others in the same vein) opened my eyes to the realization that you don't need to dime your gain to get heavy.

Over the years I have backed off stacking lots of fuzz, gain, overdrive -- and relied more on playing/picking/strumming dynamics to get to the heavy when I need it. I still want and need my gain channel but I also have come to recognize it has limitations, just like anything else.