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2019 Gibson Lineup

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  • Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

    I think forums as a whole are mostly speculation, aren't they? When a major company seems (from the outside) to be failing, it is only normal for those who are passionate about the industry to speculate and state what they think is going on and how they would fix it.
    Administrator of the SDUGF

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    • Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

      I am in love with the Modern Double Cut but $4900 is way too rich for my blood.



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      • Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

        Originally posted by Adieu View Post
        I saw a decent-looking minty Studio (full unfaded, not a submodel) for 600 bucks at GC tonight.... who the hell pays $2k for these things?
        I had a great studio years ago but now have a far better ltd ec1000 with seymours, beats or at least matches any of the 5 gibson lp models I have owned.

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        • Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

          Originally posted by Securb View Post
          I am in love with the Modern Double Cut but $4900 is way too rich for my blood.



          I hear you...if these were at a more realistic (in my mind, anyway) price point I would have scooped one of these up the minute they were released. These guitars are HOT.

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          • Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

            Originally posted by zionstrat View Post
            This is true, but let's be clear- it doesn't make PRS the fall guy for Gibson's problems-

            What PRS was saying was, there was room in the market for high quality, innovative electrics in the upper mid and boutique end of the spectrum and he was correct. Look at Suhr and Andersen in the same period- they had a good understanding of customer needs, and even more important, optimizing the value point = Customer Requirements at a price that the target market can afford.

            Gibson's problem is they thought that they could simply increase price without doing the analysis and they entirely leaned on brand power- as a result, their value points were way off base, and over time, practically every other manufacturer was able to undercut Gibson with better ability to meet user needs/quality and Gibson's brand has suffered.

            And that's ultimately why Gibson has a short window to get optimized- competitors from IBI, YAGS and Fender on the low end, Reverend & Godin in the middle, and PRS at the high end have significantly impacted Gibson's walletshare (the amount an individual spends with a given company), they have significantly displaced Gibson's mindshare (how much people think about a brand) and they have a lot more guitars on the wall.

            And that last one is incredible- It's amazing that Gibson didn't recognize that 'eating the seed corn' could not end well- when they priced dealers out, they left lots of wall space for everyone else and younger guitarists are far more likely to play Schetre, esp, IBI, Yags or Fender and people tend to buy the things they are familiar with (not to mention that have well optimized value points = great value for the cost).

            Bottom line, yeah PRS had tremendous competitive impact, but that's what they are supposed to do- Gibson was totally asleep at the wheel chasing Firebird X and robo tuners.

            The rest of the industry were happy to fill the gaps.
            There were no robo tuners and Firebird X around in the days when PRS first launched, and that is when the multi-hundred dollar price increases from Gibson started. It was a direct response to the then new PRS sky-high guitar prices, they were much more costly than anything on the market at that time, and Gibson obviously took PR Smith's comments as as a slap in the face to their company. I used to check out the new Gibsons every year in the Musician's Friend and similar catalogs, I noted each year pre-PRS that Gibson prices would creep up maybe $50 each year and I thought that was weird, when PRS started making an impact on their sales I suddenly saw annual $200 or so price increases in Gibson guitars. I could see it was in response to PRS and the fact they were getting ridiculous prices for guitars that were similar in quality (in Gibsons' eyes), and they greedily wanted their slice of that pie. In 1992 I could get an SG Standard for 700 bucks, LP's were only a little bit more. Just look how much those prices have escalated since then, it certainly isn't in line with inflation.
            I was only talking about one point, the annual massive price increases, and I hold PRS's entry into the market, making quality guitars but gouging as much out of the buyers as they could, directly responsible for those crazy Gibson price increases. It was evident if you watched the guitar market as closely as I did, and others also did. After that came the "Gibson" lifestyle crap, which was IMO their way to explain away their new pricing structure. The insane attempts at marketing bizarre guitars that nobody wanted came later.
            Whatever, I just wanted to make a point that I have believed for a long time. Those remarks from Paul Reed Smith were in an article, probably in Guitar Player Magazine (which I read constantly from the time I was a young guitar player), where a group of guitar makers discussed the guitar market at the time, and his remarks made me want to puke. Guitarists SHOULD(?) pay big bucks for electric guitars, what balls to make a statement like that, but it seems a lot of people ignored his intent to wring as much money out of them as possible and PRS was successful, which impacted the market in a bad way.
            Al
            Last edited by Zombiwoof; 09-15-2018, 06:56 AM.

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            • Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

              Originally posted by Gtrjunior View Post
              I hear you...if these were at a more realistic (in my mind, anyway) price point I would have scooped one of these up the minute they were released. These guitars are HOT.
              Same. I like how it jabs at PRS releasing a Singlecut model that was essentially a Les Paul clone.
              You will never understand How it feels to live your life With no meaning or control And with nowhere left to go You are amazed that they exist And they burn so bright
              Whilst you can only wonder why

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              • Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

                Originally posted by Zombiwoof View Post
                There were no robo tuners and Firebird X around in the days when PRS first launched, and that is when the multi-hundred dollar price increases from Gibson started. It was a direct response to the then new PRS sky-high guitar prices, they were much more costly than anything on the market at that time, and Gibson obviously took PR Smith's comments as as a slap in the face to their company. I used to check out the new Gibsons every year in the Musician's Friend and similar catalogs, I noted each year pre-PRS that Gibson prices would creep up maybe $50 each year and I thought that was weird, when PRS started making an impact on their sales I suddenly saw annual $200 or so price increases in Gibson guitars. I could see it was in response to PRS and the fact they were getting ridiculous prices for guitars that were similar in quality (in Gibsons' eyes), and they greedily wanted their slice of that pie. In 1992 I could get an SG Standard for 700 bucks, LP's were only a little bit more. Just look how much those prices have escalated since then, it certainly isn't in line with inflation.
                I was only talking about one point, the annual massive price increases, and I hold PRS's entry into the market, making quality guitars but gouging as much out of the buyers as they could, directly responsible for those crazy Gibson price increases. It was evident if you watched the guitar market as closely as I did, and others also did. After that came the "Gibson" lifestyle crap, which was IMO their way to explain away their new pricing structure. The insane attempts at marketing bizarre guitars that nobody wanted came later.
                Whatever, I just wanted to make a point that I have believed for a long time. Those remarks from Paul Reed Smith were in an article, probably in Guitar Player Magazine (which I read constantly from the time I was a young guitar player), where a group of guitar makers discussed the guitar market at the time, and his remarks made me want to puke. Guitarists SHOULD(?) pay big bucks for electric guitars, what balls to make a statement like that, but it seems a lot of people ignored his intent to wring as much money out of them as possible and PRS was successful, which impacted the market in a bad way.
                Al
                It still sounds to me like you’re trying to blame PRS for Gibson’s decisions. I didn’t read the article you’re talking about, so it’s possible that my context is off, but here’s what I see happening with the whole PRS/Gibson thing:

                Paul Reed Smith saw that there was a market for high end guitars that he could break into by providing beautiful finishes, attention to detail, and all-around high quality. He felt that he could ask a very high price for these features and that there were enough people who would buy them that he could make a nice profit doing it. This is capitalism 101... find a market, provide a product, and make money.

                Keep in mind that your PERSONAL opinions of value don’t necessarily line up with the market. If there are enough people who think something is worth it, it will sell. You can be pissed at PR Smith’s comments all you want, but the fact is that he was right and has been successful because of it. A comment like “guitarists should pay more” is the kind of comment that sets your brand a few notches above the others in the eyes of the market.

                Did Gibson try to jump on the bandwagon? Probably. But they obviously did a half-ass job of it. No matter the outcome, it was GIBSON’S decision to follow the PRS example. Nobody forced them to do it (except management of course). PRS did it and it worked. Gibson tried to copy and failed... it’s just business and it’s certainly not PRS’ fault.

                If one doesn’t like PRS or feels like their products are not worth their prices, don’t buy one.

                If one doesn’t like Gibson or feels like their products are not worth their prices, don’t buy one.

                It’s a free, open market and there are lots of great guitars being made nowadays to choose from.
                Originally posted by The Commodores?
                "Chicken Brown Chicken Brown Cow"

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                • Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

                  just a note for reference....GC is probably one of the biggest seller of electric guitars...here is what they say the 5 most poular are:

                  https://www.guitarcenter.com/riffs/b...ectric-guitars

                  funny, 3 Gibsons make the list...where are all these other guitars that are taking away Gibson's market share???

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                  • Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

                    Originally posted by Zombiwoof View Post
                    I hold PRS's entry into the market, making quality guitars but gouging as much out of the buyers as they could, directly responsible for those crazy Gibson price increases...
                    l
                    Zombie, I agree that PRS and boutiques opened up a high end market. The market was willing to pay and it was sustainable, so its hard to understand why they wouldn't go there.

                    Imho, PRS and others introduced, high quality and innovation, shaking up the industry, forcing tighter specs and bubbling down into the mid market. They increased competitive pressure which forces everyone to up their game.

                    Considering all of my expensive guitars, the guitar thats gigging the most right now is a $900 Reverend and I believe that the high quality middle of the road cost is a result of competitive pressure.

                    Reverend and many others watched as the value points were optimized on the high end and they realized they could increase value in the mid range, so they displaced Gibson sales in midrange just as PRS did on the high end.

                    Meanwhile, Gibson did nothing but raise prices... They didn't add processes to better insure quality, they didn't add new features that customer's loved (PRS coil matching is a great ecample) and they didn't find ways to optimize costs (Reverend only uses korina wood).

                    So I agree with you...Gibson believed they deserved to be the most expensive brand and pride caused them to run up the price... However, they ignored the competition accross all markets and the competition has displaced a lot of Gibson from the low end to the high end....

                    Thanks for a good thread and pulling for new management to open their eyes and get Gibson competitive...

                    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
                    What's so Funny about Peace Love and Understanding?

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                    • Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

                      Briguy... Our posts crossed in time and you were far more articulate!

                      Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
                      What's so Funny about Peace Love and Understanding?

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                      • Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

                        Originally posted by justFred View Post
                        just a note for reference....GC is probably one of the biggest seller of electric guitars...here is what they say the 5 most poular are:

                        https://www.guitarcenter.com/riffs/b...ectric-guitars

                        funny, 3 Gibsons make the list...where are all these other guitars that are taking away Gibson's market share???
                        That is most popular design. It doesn't mention what models and brands have particularly sold the best. Everytime I go into GC, there is quite a good chance that I will see some sort of transaction involving some sort of Les Paul.
                        You will never understand How it feels to live your life With no meaning or control And with nowhere left to go You are amazed that they exist And they burn so bright
                        Whilst you can only wonder why

                        Comment


                        • Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

                          Originally posted by zionstrat View Post
                          Briguy... Our posts crossed in time and you were far more articulate!

                          Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
                          Lol... I was just about to say the same thing to you!
                          Originally posted by The Commodores?
                          "Chicken Brown Chicken Brown Cow"

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                          • Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

                            Originally posted by Chistopher View Post
                            That is most popular design. It doesn't mention what models and brands have particularly sold the best. Everytime I go into GC, there is quite a good chance that I will see some sort of transaction involving some sort of Les Paul.
                            Yup. it would be interesting to see their actual top 5 SKUs... regardless of price or style.
                            Originally posted by The Commodores?
                            "Chicken Brown Chicken Brown Cow"

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                            • Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

                              Originally posted by Securb View Post
                              I am in love with the Modern Double Cut but $4900 is way too rich for my blood.


                              That's a cool guitar, but if they're going 'modern', why not a 13-degree peghead with straight string pull?

                              I'd be more interested in that, but ~$3500 street is a bit steep when I can get a PRS for about the same price with far better QC.
                              Originally posted by crusty philtrum
                              And that's probably because most people with electric guitars seem more interested in their own performance rather than the effect on the listener ... in fact i don't think many people who own electric guitars even give a poop about the effect on a listener. Which is why many people play electric guitars but very very few of them are actually musicians.

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                              • Re: 2019 Gibson Lineup

                                Originally posted by justFred View Post
                                just a note for reference....GC is probably one of the biggest seller of electric guitars...here is what they say the 5 most poular are:

                                https://www.guitarcenter.com/riffs/b...ectric-guitars

                                funny, 3 Gibsons make the list...where are all these other guitars that are taking away Gibson's market share???
                                JustFred,
                                You've opened a very interesting door- if you count all models, by unit, for all time, the Telecaster, Stratocaster, LP and especially SG are certainly the top 4- in the 50s, 60s and 70s when these models were ramping up, Gibson and Fender owned nearly 70% of the market. The other 30% was split between Ric, Gretsh, Hoffner, etc… Small brands with small outputs.

                                Now move to 80s,90, 00s and add in Yamaha, Ibanez, PRS, the boutiques and mid range like Godin and Reverend. Total Yamaha sales are more than 10 times that of competitors, Fender is about 3 times more… Big brands with big outputs.

                                Of course the Yamahas and Ibanez and PRS and Reverends and Rics, etc are so diverse that no single model is likely to catch up with the classics by unit sales in the short term.

                                But we’re talking apples and oranges- That’s why Gibson will continue to claim the SG as the most popular electric of all time-

                                But by revenue and unit count, Gibson’s market share has dramatically decreased, that’s where profit comes from and one of the reasons that Gibson has so much work to do if they want to stay in the game.
                                What's so Funny about Peace Love and Understanding?

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