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help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

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  • #16
    Re: help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

    Some micing tips:

    - The closer the microphone is to the center of the speaker, the more low end and high end will be picked up.

    - As the microphone is moved to the outside of the cone, the midrange becomes clearer in comparison.

    - In conjunction with this, the angle of the microphone in relation to the cone can also change the tone of the guitar sound.

    - Angling the microphone 45 degrees outward will reduce the upper midrange frequencies.

    - Angling the microphone 45 degrees inward will increase low midrange frequencies.

    You can try these variants to "EQ" simply by mic positioning.

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    • #17
      Re: help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

      Thanks to all for great advice!
      After trying everything suggested here and elsewhere found what I was looking for cannot be done...big sound I hear is in three dimensions...recording is two dimensional...losing a dimension is a bummer....

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      • #18
        Re: help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

        nearly had a nervous breakdown...this isn't much...but crud....this trying to record stuff is really really hard...
        Google drive link:
        https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OwG...ew?usp=sharing

        trying to keep the Mesa Studio 22 from clipping when recording is almost impossible...it sounds fine, no clips until you try and record it...what's up with that????

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

          Originally posted by justFred View Post
          nearly had a nervous breakdown...this isn't much...but crud....this trying to record stuff is really really hard...
          Google drive link:
          https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OwG...ew?usp=sharing

          trying to keep the Mesa Studio 22 from clipping when recording is almost impossible...it sounds fine, no clips until you try and record it...what's up with that????
          If you're hearing clipping on the recording that you're not hearing in the room that means either the mic is clipping or the preamp is clipping. Basically you're overloading your recording gear.
          -
          My Rolling Stones tribute band: The Main Street Exiles

          At the battle of the bands, the loser is always the audience. -Demitri Martin

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          • #20
            Re: help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

            Originally posted by Swampy View Post
            Im assuming this to get a good recorded sound, not a live sound.

            You could try double tracking. Play through one amp while recording, then play through other amp and record that. Then pan the two tracks.
            This is exactly what I would do as well.
            If the OP wants an even bigger, thicker sound he can double track each guitar/amp for a total of 4 guitar tracks.

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            • #21
              help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

              Originally posted by justFred View Post
              nearly had a nervous breakdown...this isn't much...but crud....this trying to record stuff is really really hard...
              Google drive link:
              https://drive.google.com/file/d/1OwG...ew?usp=sharing

              trying to keep the Mesa Studio 22 from clipping when recording is almost impossible...it sounds fine, no clips until you try and record it...what's up with that????
              Sometimes the recording as a whole can clip due to the multitude of “near clipping” tracks combined together.
              In the digital recording world you don’t need the needle to be teetering on the edge of clipping. That was a trick used in the analog recording era. Try backing down fairly significantly on the input signal.
              Remember, the overall volume of the recording will be boosted during the mastering process, that’s not something to worry about during the recording process.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

                The other mistake a lot of guys make is bass. As in way too much bass dialed in on the amp itself. I get that you want it to sound "huge" but it doesn't come through that way through the mics. That's why generally speaking, small amps sound massive in the studio. Too much bass and too much volume are not good studio techniques.
                -
                My Rolling Stones tribute band: The Main Street Exiles

                At the battle of the bands, the loser is always the audience. -Demitri Martin

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

                  Originally posted by Powdered Toast Man View Post
                  The other mistake a lot of guys make is bass. As in way too much bass dialed in on the amp itself. I get that you want it to sound "huge" but it doesn't come through that way through the mics. That's why generally speaking, small amps sound massive in the studio. Too much bass and too much volume are not good studio techniques.
                  Agreed...most of the time I’ll eq some highs and lows out of the guitar so it sits in the mix better.
                  Another trick I like to do is double the bass track (cut and paste) and hard pan it R/L. Add some compression and it sounds huge.

                  Even though it’s an identical track, to my ears it sounds a lot bigger...I can’t explain in any technical way why that is though.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

                    Originally posted by Gtrjunior View Post
                    Agreed...most of the time I’ll eq some highs and lows out of the guitar so it sits in the mix better.
                    Another trick I like to do is double the bass track (cut and paste) and hard pan it R/L. Add some compression and it sounds huge.

                    Even though it’s an identical track, to my ears it sounds a lot bigger...I can’t explain in any technical way why that is though.
                    True doubling (whereupon you play and record two different tracks of the same part and pan L/R) goes even further due to tiny differences
                    in timing and sometimes pitch between the two different tracks. A very mild chorus, if you will.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

                      Originally posted by LLL View Post
                      True doubling (whereupon you play and record two different tracks of the same part and pan L/R) goes even further due to tiny differences
                      in timing and sometimes pitch between the two different tracks. A very mild chorus, if you will.
                      It does, but I don’t have the patience for that!! In the past I’ve used the “slight delay trick” on the 2nd track to make them sound like imperfect takes.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

                        Originally posted by Gtrjunior View Post
                        Another trick I like to do is double the bass track (cut and paste) and hard pan it R/L. Add some compression and it sounds huge.

                        Even though it’s an identical track, to my ears it sounds a lot bigger...I can’t explain in any technical way why that is though.
                        It’s a psychoacoustic trick. You are still getting a phantom center but the bass tracks are allowing center-panned instruments space. It’s a subtle but noticeable effect that’s not really en vogue these days due to the issues it presents to mastering engineers; a modern mastering engineer takes a m/s EQ to the mix first thing and removes 150-250 Hz as a matter of course. (Bye bye, bass!) and for analog mastering, all bass is summed to mono anyway, effectively re panning the bass you panned.

                        A similar trick I have heard is to mult the bass like you are doing, but have three copies, and band pass all three. Two have high pass filters and are panned hard left and right; the third is low pass filtered and kept in the center.

                        Getting the low end right in a mix is probably the second hardest thing to get right, after knowing how to properly use compression.

                        If the mix is muddy, it usually indicates a buildup in 300-500 Hz. Rule One of mixing is HIGH PASS FILTER EVERY TRACK. That is still the tried and true way of controlling unwanted or unneeded low freqs.
                        Last edited by TwilightOdyssey; 09-19-2018, 05:30 AM.
                        Why don't you take your little Cobra Kais and get outta here?!
                        My collaborative PROGRESSIVE ROCK PROJECT, As Follows.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

                          Originally posted by Gtrjunior View Post
                          It does, but I don’t have the patience for that!! In the past I’ve used the “slight delay trick” on the 2nd track to make them sound like imperfect takes.
                          The only issue with that (>30mS delays) is it can introduce phase problems. Depends on what kind of sound you are going for, though!
                          Why don't you take your little Cobra Kais and get outta here?!
                          My collaborative PROGRESSIVE ROCK PROJECT, As Follows.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

                            Originally posted by Gtrjunior View Post
                            Sometimes the recording as a whole can clip due to the multitude of “near clipping” tracks combined together.
                            In the digital recording world you don’t need the needle to be teetering on the edge of clipping. That was a trick used in the analog recording era. Try backing down fairly significantly on the input signal.
                            Remember, the overall volume of the recording will be boosted during the mastering process, that’s not something to worry about during the recording process.
                            If you are recording in 24 bit digital, the standard is to have peaking at -18dBFS on all tracks.
                            Why don't you take your little Cobra Kais and get outta here?!
                            My collaborative PROGRESSIVE ROCK PROJECT, As Follows.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

                              Originally posted by TwilightOdyssey View Post
                              It’s a psychoacoustic trick. You are still getting a phantom center but the bass tracks are allowing center-panned instruments space. It’s a subtle but noticeable effect that’s not really en vogue these days due to the issues it presents to mastering engineers; a modern mastering engineer takes a m/s EQ to the mix first thing and removes 150-250 Hz as a matter of course. (Bye bye, bass!) and for analog mastering, all bass is summed to mono anyway, effectively re panning the bass you panned.

                              A similar trick I have heard is to mult the bass like you are doing, but have three copies, and band pass all three. Two have high pass filters and are panned hard left and right; the third is low pass filtered and kept in the center.

                              Getting the low end right in a mix is probably the second hardest thing to get right, after knowing how to properly use compression.

                              If the mix is muddy, it usually indicates a buildup in 300-500 Hz. Rule One of mixing is HIGH PASS FILTER EVERY TRACK. That is still the tried and true way of controlling unwanted or unneeded low freqs.
                              Originally posted by TwilightOdyssey View Post
                              The only issue with that (>30mS delays) is it can introduce phase problems. Depends on what kind of sound you are going for, though!
                              Originally posted by TwilightOdyssey View Post
                              If you are recording in 24 bit digital, the standard is to have peaking at -18dBFS on all tracks.
                              Good tips!
                              I’m definitely still a beginner at all of this. I’ve just either stumbled on to things that seem to work or somebody has told me to try something that has worked.

                              You’re 100% correct when you say that compression and eq are the hardest part of mixing/engineering. They way we hear something isn’t really something that is easy to teach (or learn for that matter).

                              Luckily, I haven’t run into the phase issues you spoke of yet!! But truth be told, I don’t use that trick when tracking guitar parts but have been known to use it once or twice on bass!

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: help pleas...why did this turn to mush?

                                Whoa...yuz guys is talkin' quantum physics stuff...just trying to direct record one guitar thru two amps and not get clipping from the mesa high notes...

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