Can you help me convert EE coil theory into pickup theory?

[zionstrat]

Yeah, 2 sides of the same coin, but I am trying to move beyond rudimentary "plumbing" circuit thinking to truly understand what the electrons are doing and section 1 in the diagram confuses me....

The slow and fast sine wave example appears to say that pickup coils will naturally attenuate higher frequencies, right?

Same with square waves, but the square wave is converted into a ramp wave?

And the last part seems to say that high impedance signals will be colored with ringing. Since we call pups high impedance does this mean that ringing is added to the ac signal that represents the moving string?

And once we are clear on those questions, are these factors coloring pickup sound, and are they part of pickup design?

I think I am confused thinking of sine waves and square waves from synthesizers... Maybe none of this has impact because string oscillations aren't shifting from sine to square?

I have no idea if my questions make sense and appreciate any and all clarifications!





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[Blille]

Re: Can you help me convert EE coil theory into pickup theory?

Where does the mojo come in?

[AlexR]

Re: Can you help me convert EE coil theory into pickup theory?

You need tranducer theory......the first sentence/paragraph is the wrong way around for a pickup but the right way for a speaker.

[zionstrat]

Re: Can you help me convert EE coil theory into pickup theory?

You need tranducer theory......the first sentence/paragraph is the wrong way around for a pickup but the right way for a speaker.

Thanks Alex.

Do you mean "the electric current moving through a wire" sentence only applies to speakers?

If so, is it because amps and volts for pups are so small?

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[AlexR]

Re: Can you help me convert EE coil theory into pickup theory?

Well, the way I read those notes is, that the current is generated elsewhere and that what happens when you pass it through wire.
A pickup however is the means of signal generation in the circuit, so whilst all physical elements of the way it is wound do matter, you cannot approach it prom the 'passive' end of the theory side.
If you had notes on the transformers, and in particular the exit side, then this would tell you much more in relation to pickups. But even that would miss the mark a bit as you are going from 1 electrical signal to another, rather than physical movement in a magnetic field.

Of course a winder is much better....even if they can only give what they do physically to influence tonal outcomes. But of course that is info you might not get from them as that is what they spend many years experience 'failing' in order to gain.

[zionstrat]

Re: Can you help me convert EE coil theory into pickup theory?

Ah, now that you've explained it sounds simple

If I'm understanding you correctly, these notes are looking at a coil as a filter, where a PUP is actually a generator, so it's not relevant at all for pup design-

Which explains your reference to using this theory for speakers-

Much appreciated!

[AlexR]

Re: Can you help me convert EE coil theory into pickup theory?

I'd have to say that my knowledge of this area is pretty rudimentary - you would find that the examples on that page to have some relevance to the nature of the signal induced in the coil.

[Condemned soul]

Re: Can you help me convert EE coil theory into pickup theory?

A pickup has a magnet, and a coil is located within the magnet's field.
The coil leads go to the volume and tone controls of the guitar and onwards to the output jack.

As you beat your strings mercilessly,
the strings moves thorough magnetic field.
As strings moves thorough, they are breaking the magnetic field and inducing an emf in the pick up coils which is the pick up output..

[Teleplayer]

Re: Can you help me convert EE coil theory into pickup theory?

There is some problem with your notes where you wrote about "resisting" rapid changes in current, as the current though an inductor does not have an "In" and an "Out".
The current going into the inductor would be the same as the current flowing out. It would be more correct to quote Wikipedia and say:
"The effect of an inductor in a circuit is to oppose changes in current through it by developing a voltage across it proportional to the rate of change of the current"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductor

If you want to discuss the concept of input and output, I would say you need to create a filter. You can google the terms "RL low pass filter", and "RLC low pass filter"

"RL filters" consist of only one inductor, and one resistor. It is also called a "First order filter". In theory these filters do not have "ringing", because the theory assumes they are perfect inductors.
If you built a "RL filter" with actual components you can measure some ringing that occurs due to winding capacitance of the coil. That is caused by "Self resonance", which is electrical resonance between inductance and capacitance of the coil.

"RLC filter" is made using one resistor, one Inductor, and one Capacitor. It is called a "Second order filter". You can design low-pass, high-pass, and band-pass filters. RLC filter may have "Ringing" at its resonance frequency that is designed according the inductance and capacitance values. Studying RLC filters is probably a good way to learn about the way inductors and capacitors interact. You can also read about AC circuit theory which covers the same topics in more general terms.

[Discharged]

Re: Can you help me convert EE coil theory into pickup theory?

You should use the theory behind "current produced by a moving magnet by the disruption of a magnetic field".

/Peter

[zionstrat]

Re: Can you help me convert EE coil theory into pickup theory?

Thanks guys... Lots of reading this w end!

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[ArtieToo]

Re: Can you help me convert EE coil theory into pickup theory?

If you had notes on the transformers, and in particular the exit side, then this would tell you much more in relation to pickups.

This is right on the money. The pickup coils are, for all intent and purpose, the secondary of a transformer. The vibrations of the string are "transformed" into a voltage and current. The coils themselves, don't know where the stimulation is coming from, be it a primary coil, or moving metal.

If you go to Jensen Transformers, (you may need to log in for free), and read some of Bill Whitlocks "white papers", you'll get some good info.

Edit: Go here: http://www.jensen-transformers.com (Log in for free.)
Click on "Resources", then "Application notes". All those are good, but AN008 is a good place to start. Then follow up with AN002.

[beaubrummels]

Re: Can you help me convert EE coil theory into pickup theory?

Where does the mojo come in?

Talk to your pusher, man.

[zionstrat]

Re: Can you help me convert EE coil theory into pickup theory?

This is right on the money. The pickup coils are, for all intent and purpose, the secondary of a transformer. The vibrations of the string are "transformed" into a voltage and current. The coils themselves, don't know where the stimulation is coming from, be it a primary coil, or moving metal.

If you go to Jensen Transformers, (you may need to log in for free), and read some of Bill Whitlocks "white papers", you'll get some good info.

Edit: Go here: http://www.jensen-transformers.com (Log in for free.)
Click on "Resources", then "Application notes". All those are good, but AN008 is a good place to start. Then follow up with AN002.

Wow! Loving
Audio Transformers
by
Bill Whitlock
!!!!!

[ArtieToo]

Re: Can you help me convert EE coil theory into pickup theory?

It's one of those things you read several times, in your spare time, and pick up something new each time you read. I'm still reading his various papers.