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  • Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

    Hi folks.

    Please help. I'm actually at the end of my tether now. I've spent I dunno how long trying to get a very specific tone i.e. Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from around 1984 or so. I've posted a link to a video below i.e. that's what I'm after. I've now spent a LOT of money on guitars JUST trying to get that tone and it's not happening and it's driving me insane. I've got three guitars: two Jackson's and a Blaze VC-II Shredder (give you three guesses why I bought the Blaze!!!). Landed: the Blaze cost me nearly $5K and I figured that it was exactly what I needed. But no. And sadly: the closest I come to the tone I'm after is with my cheapest guitar (Jackson Dinky, Poplar body, Maple fretboard, stock Jackson pickups). My Blaze (Honduras Mahogany body, Ebony fretboard, Seymour Duncan Full Shred bridge, Seymour Duncan SH-4 JB middle) is very dark sounding and seems to lack mids. My other Jackson (Jackson Dinky, Poplar Body, Rosewood fretboard, stock Jackson pickups) sounds similar to the Blaze in the sense that it also seems to lack mids. but this particular guitar has loads of bottom and loads of top (to the point where it's almost impossible to tame i.e. dunno what's up with this particular guitar but it has LOADS of bite and growl to the point that it doesn't matter WHAT it's plugged into: you have to dial everything back otherwise everything becomes WELL distorted to the point of the bottom blowing out or the tops becoming shrill). As I said: with my cheapest Jackson: I'm getting close i.e. it seems to have a little less bottom and slightly less top but it has a definite clarity, is full, and has mids. that the other two do not. And happy as I should be: it kinda pees me off that I've got two other very expensive guitars and I just cannot "get it on" with them so I need to sort them out (well one of them at least) now and once and for all!!!

    Now from doing a bit of research: Vivian, in 1983/1984, with Dio, apparently started out with Seymour Duncan Invaders and then switched to Dimarzio Super Distortions (which I THINK are the pickups in the video on the link below i.e. they have silver pole pieces and not the black pole pieces of the Invaders but I could very well be wrong of course). Problem is: there seems to be a LOT of disagreement on the Internet as to which pickups Vivian was actually using in his Charvel strats. at the time. I've now also looked on both Dimarzio's website and, obviously, Seymour Duncan's website and it would seem, according the specs. of these pickups, that they have a bit of a bottom cut and a mid boost. So my question REALLY: is WHICH pickups do I need PLEASE!!! Pending input from you all here: the way I see it the only choices I have are the Dimarzio Super Distortions, the Seymour Duncan Invaders, or POSSIBLY (seen this mentioned as well) Seymour Duncan Distortion (SH-6). I don't particularly want to mod. the Blaze as it's supposed to be a sort of collector's piece so I'm figuring on replacing the pickups in my "bright" Jackson first (and if that doesn't get me my tone then, oh well, guess I'll have to mod. the Blaze).

    Please PLEASE help!!!

    When helping though: please do bear in mind the types of wood used for the bodies and fretboards. If I put the specs. of my "bright" Jackson into Seymour Duncan's Pickup Finder the Invaders are recommended.

    Also not bothered at all with the neck pickup really BUT I also don't want to leave a gaping hole in a guitar so what would be a good match??? Or would it just make sense to put the same pickups in both positions e.g. two Invaders or whatever???

    One other thing (almost forgot): this is not an issue with the Jackson's i.e. although they have Floyd's (the "bright" one has an original Floyd Rose and the other Dinky, that sounds good, has the Jackson licenced Floyd) the pickups are not F-spaced but the Blaze's bridge pickup (SD Full Shred) is the F-spaced version. The SD Distortion (SH-6) appears to be the only pickup of the three that I've noted above that comes in a bridge version. So not QUITE sure where to go from here IF some of you around here recommend the Dimarzio or the SD Invaders.

    Here's the video link:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6cnPRjx8B4&t=145s

    I cannot quite put my finger on the tone i.e. it's like it's got a "mid jangle"???

    Regards,

    Dale.

    P.S.

    Don't quote me on the above pickup options that I've mentioned i.e. feel free to suggest others. I say this because I've been doing some more searching now and again: much disagreement and / or inaccurate information (some on even these very forums) i.e. have even found posts where SD Custom pickups were apparently used (not to mention a whole host of other types). All very confusing.
    Last edited by dpaterson; 11-25-2018, 05:45 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

    I didn’t see you mention what amp you are playing through.

    Vivian’s tone, to my ears is a pretty standard hot rodded Marshall tone. I wouldn’t think it would be all that difficult to replicate.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

      Hi,

      I find incredibly difficult to recommend a pickup when a tone is defined by fingers + pick + strings + inner electronics + guitar + FX's + (pre)amp + cab + miking + mixing board + post prod reEQing of the track + mp3 compression + soundcard + amp + speakers or headphones + ears of the listener (non limitative list).

      I just know that IF a guitarist wants a lot of mids, a few possible solutions are…

      -a reverse V shaped preEQing (Campbell was meant to use a Boss GE7 EQ between guitar and amp but also a Boss OD, whose EQing is “naturally” mid centric);

      -high inductance pickups – but all those mentioned above are…

      -HIGH CAPACITANCE CABLES. With ANY passive pickup, longer cable = more capacitance = more mids and less high chime. See her if it’s not clear:
      https://texasbluesalley.com/oldtonezone/tone-tuesday/tag/Cable,+Buffers,+and+ToneI didn’t really pay attention to my cables until I’d been playing for over 1...

      An uber-geeky demonstration of the effects of cable length and buffers on your guitar tone. Check out Pete Thorn's "Guitar Nerd" CD here:http://www.cdbaby.co...

      Comparison between two guitar cables of different lengths: 4.5' vs 26' (1.4 vs 8 meters). All the cable is Mogami 2524 with Switchcraft L and Neutrik Silent ...

      The ZEROCAP(TM) Ultra-Low Capacitance Guitar Cable by Atlantic Quality Design, Inc. allows you to hear all of the frequencies being produced by your guitar. ...


      The possible combinations between these traditionally overlooked parms are already countless. I mean: a mid-boosting preEQing reached through a low capacitance transmitter won’t sound the same than an EQ set to bring back some brightness in a sound previously darkened by a long (high capacitance) cable.

      The model of passive pickup used becomes almost indifferent compared to this EQing chain IMHO and IME.

      TIP: a high capacitance cable can be mimicked by a small capacitor between the hot and ground of the pickup or output jack plug. A capacitor costs a few cents. To mimic 18ft, 30ft, 45ft & 60ft cables, try 1nF, 1.5nF, 2.2nF and 3.3nF caps. Above these values, the sound might recall a cocked wha.

      Good luck in your quest.
      Duncan user since the 80's...

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

        Hello. And thanks for the reply.
        Originally posted by Gtrjunior View Post
        I didn’t see you mention what amp you are playing through.

        Vivian’s tone, to my ears is a pretty standard hot rodded Marshall tone. I wouldn’t think it would be all that difficult to replicate.
        Nah. I wish it were that easy!!! LOL!!! Believe me I've spent nearly two years trying to nail that tone not only with amps. but with every piece of amp. sim. software known to man which has also cost a small fortune let me tell you as I own most of the well known ones. BIAS AMP 2 is POSSIBLY the closest (close but no cigar). But I dislike amp. sims. intensely anyway (although one would expect that I'd have gotten that tone with something like BIAS or Amplitube or Guitar Rig Pro and the Blaze not so???). So yeh: I play through Marshall CODE amps. (CODE25's or CODE50's depending on the situation i.e. CODE25's micd. up through an Alto PA or CODE50's on their own) (all in stereo of course). I'm PRETTY sure that somebody is going to chime in here and tell me that the amps. are a problem because the CODE range doesn't have the best reputation but I swear by them (I have no less than five of them so I must like 'em!!! LOL!!!). But it's not my amps. I've had JCM800's on two occasions in my life so I know what I'm supposed to be getting from an amp. and I get some really great tone from my amps. (although unlike with a valve amp.: I'll admit it's taken me the best part of eighteen months to dial them in though). Also and as noted: I'm "almost there" with my cheap Jackson (let's call it my WHITE Jackson). But the other two??? I don't even play the Blaze which I guess is sad (actually bought it because I was looking for a Kramer Nightswan II and then discovered the history and the story etc. etc. etc. and one thing led to another). And it's the "Anniversay" edition so I'm kinda just keeping it for posterity really. This all being said: both the Blaze and the other Jackson (my BLACK Jackson) are great for that dark type metal but it's not my thing to play (I listen to it of course) i.e. I only play Dio stuff (mainly), SOME Whitesnake, and SOME Motorhead. So yeh: as great as these two guitars are they're not furthering my cause!!! And dunno who wound the Jackson pickups on my black Jackson but MAN they went out of their way on these pickups (this guitar will distort anything and heavily too). I've even put a cap. in to try tame the thing!!! Anyway. I digress (sorry). I play with an MXR Custom Comp, into a Boss GE-7, signal split with a Bigshot ABY, left direct to one amp. and right to a Boss DD-7 and then into the second amp. (long story as to why I do this and don't just use the DD-7 to split the signal i.e. causes phase and comb filtering issues). Sometimes I will use a Boss SD-1 instead of the CODE's built in distortion (but it gets very noisy especially when using the JCM800 emulation on the CODE with the SD-1). So yeh. I've tried to EQ (Vivian used the same EQ pedal) to get the tone I want but still not where I want to be!!! Also: close but no cigar.

        On a sidenote: I happened to find the below just today. This chap has absolutely nailed Vivian's tone. And to add insult to MY injury: he's using JamVOX which costs all of $99!!! It sticks "you know what" into all this other expensive software lemme tell ya. As I noted in comments to him: at least with JamVOX you can get some decent sound "right out of the box" i.e. without having to spend days and days on end just trying to get something decent. Go figure!!!

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-bjw7ZiNO0

        Now he (as per his comments) has a Dimarzio Super Distortion DP100 in that guitar and I must admit I'm leaning that way simply because of his tone. But I've never had Dimarzio pickups and have pretty much been a loyal SD fan and customer over the years (some years back I actually did have two of the most wonderful Charvel strats. both of which had SD pickups in them and then some fewer years ago I had a Jackson Soloist also with SD pickups). Point is: I'm not really keen to abandon SD hence my attempting to get some input here. Must say the SD Invaders are tempting. My biggest problem is that I cannot test this stuff i.e. it all has to be purchased from overseas and with shipping costs and our disgusting exchange rate this can become a very expensive exercise so I need to get it right first time!!!

        Thanks again for the reply.

        Regards,

        Dale.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

          You are at the end of your rope chasing a specific person's tone, but you have not yet tried 1) The guitars he was playing, and 2) The pickups he was using.... I'd start there.
          Also, you have a Blaze with a FULL SHRED bridge, and it sounds DARK?? Something does not sound right there. That was the brightest pickup I have ever had in a bridge. What amp are you playing it through?

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

            Hey, hey. And thank you TOO for your most valuable input. Much appreciated.
            Originally posted by freefrog View Post
            Hi,

            I find incredibly difficult to recommend a pickup when a tone is defined by fingers + pick + strings + inner electronics + guitar + FX's + (pre)amp + cab + miking + mixing board + post prod reEQing of the track + mp3 compression + soundcard + amp + speakers or headphones + ears of the listener (non limitative list).

            I just know that IF a guitarist wants a lot of mids, a few possible solutions are…

            -a reverse V shaped preEQing (Campbell was meant to use a Boss GE7 EQ between guitar and amp but also a Boss OD, whose EQing is “naturally” mid centric);

            -high inductance pickups – but all those mentioned above are…

            -HIGH CAPACITANCE CABLES. With ANY passive pickup, longer cable = more capacitance = more mids and less high chime. See her if it’s not clear:
            https://texasbluesalley.com/oldtonezone/tone-tuesday/tag/Cable,+Buffers,+and+ToneI didn’t really pay attention to my cables until I’d been playing for over 1...

            An uber-geeky demonstration of the effects of cable length and buffers on your guitar tone. Check out Pete Thorn's "Guitar Nerd" CD here:http://www.cdbaby.co...

            Comparison between two guitar cables of different lengths: 4.5' vs 26' (1.4 vs 8 meters). All the cable is Mogami 2524 with Switchcraft L and Neutrik Silent ...

            The ZEROCAP(TM) Ultra-Low Capacitance Guitar Cable by Atlantic Quality Design, Inc. allows you to hear all of the frequencies being produced by your guitar. ...


            The possible combinations between these traditionally overlooked parms are already countless. I mean: a mid-boosting preEQing reached through a low capacitance transmitter won’t sound the same than an EQ set to bring back some brightness in a sound previously darkened by a long (high capacitance) cable.

            The model of passive pickup used becomes almost indifferent compared to this EQing chain IMHO and IME.

            TIP: a high capacitance cable can be mimicked by a small capacitor between the hot and ground of the pickup or output jack plug. A capacitor costs a few cents. To mimic 18ft, 30ft, 45ft & 60ft cables, try 1nF, 1.5nF, 2.2nF and 3.3nF caps. Above these values, the sound might recall a cocked wha.

            Good luck in your quest.
            I hear what you're saying. I've detailed my gear setup in my previous post above though and I'm pretty sure it ain't my setup. As noted: I'm pretty close with one of my Jackson's. Problem is: if anything were to happen to this guitar then I'm royally in trouble!!! And I have to admit that I really do love my black Jackson (I swear this guitar has a life of its own i.e. just something about it). But it's lacking the mids. and it has a tendency to just blow everything away (including your ears) if you don't dial back on gain by a HUGE amount.

            Thanks for the technical info. Very interesting about the caps. though. Oddly enough: just yesterday I put a 0.47 cap. in series with the hot out of my black Jackson and that's definitely taken away some of the harsh overdone bass. But I didn't know about the capacitance tip. May be worth a try. Thanks.

            Regards,

            Dale.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

              Seems like you have your best answer then. Try the Dimarzio SD. It seems to me that if you found a video of a guy nailing the tone with a specific pickup, and you are convinced that, based on everything you have tried, the "right" pickup is a missing link, then the logical choice is to try the pickup that you know can get the job done. Seymour Duncan will survive your purchase of a Dimarzio and nobody here will think less of you. It's OK.

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

                I found this with a quick google...
                You probably have seen it if you’ve been researching but good info anyway.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

                  FWIW, the super D is a killer pickup.
                  And like Darg1911 said...it’s all good.
                  We appreciate all the pickups and pickup winders here.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

                    Hello. And thank you too for the response. Really fantastic all these responses. Thanks.
                    Originally posted by Mr. B View Post
                    You are at the end of your rope chasing a specific person's tone, but you have not yet tried 1) The guitars he was playing, and 2) The pickups he was using.... I'd start there.
                    Also, you have a Blaze with a FULL SHRED bridge, and it sounds DARK?? Something does not sound right there. That was the brightest pickup I have ever had in a bridge. What amp are you playing it through?
                    I've detailed my gear setup in a post above. I really do believe it's my guitars and nothing else. And yeh: that's what I'm trying to find out here i.e. there's so many posts around supposedly detailing the pickups that Vivian used in that Charvel strat. but there's too many conflicting posts around I'm afraid. I'll tell ya one thing for fun: I've exhausted every effort to actually buy THAT Charvel from Vivian but no luck unfortunately. Point is: that is the length I'm prepared to go to get that tone!!!

                    Yeh. My Blaze!!! Where do I start!!! It's definitely the finest piece of equipment I've ever had. And everybody over here that sees it and has played it absolutely drools over it. It's indeed the most beautiful and well crafted instrument no question. But it's DARK. It's clear and cutting but DARK. There's no other way to describe it. Matter of fact: I took it to show it to a mate of mine when I got it. Plugged in to a JCM800 and the very first words that came out of his mouth were "it's dark hey". Tested it with a Kemper into a Marshall 4 x 12 cab. Same thing. I just happened to have my black Jackson with me on that day: plugged in and MONSTER distortion with loads of bass and treble (too much of both actually given the same amp. settings). I did ask Buddy about this DARKNESS and he told me that it's because of the body (wood). I don't know enough about the effect of the different wood used so who am I to disagree or pass comment. All I do know is that the body is much thicker than my Jackson's and it is a DARN heavy (as in weight) guitar. Sustains like there is no tomorrow. And a thin neck like you ain't never seen!!! But it's just not giving me the tone that I'm after. Truth be told I AM toying with the idea of getting Buddy to make me a guitar with the exact same specs. as that white Charvel in the Dio video. But man: where does it stop!!! LOL!!!

                    Regards,

                    Dale.
                    Last edited by dpaterson; 11-25-2018, 07:52 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

                      Thanks for the technical info. Very interesting about the caps. though. Oddly enough: just yesterday I put a 0.47 cap. in series with the hot out of my black Jackson and that's definitely taken away some of the harsh overdone bass. But I didn't know about the capacitance tip. May be worth a try. Thanks.
                      You're welcome. :-)

                      Your experience is logcal: a cap in series with a pickup reduces its bass range. Some Rickenbacker guitars were fitted with series caps to do that.

                      A cap in parallel with the PU reduces its high range AND lowers its "resonant frequency" (the frequency where the pickup is the strongest). That's how tone controls work. With passive pickups, a cable behaves like a tone control always set on 0/10, but whose capacitor would have a very smal value... While a passive pickup played through 900ft of standard cable would sound like an axe with a tone pot @ 0/10 + a 0.047µF cap. :-))

                      Now, our rigs are more or less sensitive to "stray capacitance". So, nothing replaces personal experiments.

                      Again, good luck in your quest!
                      Duncan user since the 80's...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

                        Hello again. And thanks again.
                        Originally posted by freefrog View Post
                        You're welcome. :-)

                        Your experience is logcal: a cap in series with a pickup reduces its bass range. Some Rickenbacker guitars were fitted with series caps to do that.

                        A cap in parallel with the PU reduces its high range AND lowers its "resonant frequency" (the frequency where the pickup is the strongest). That's how tone controls work. With passive pickups, a cable behaves like a tone control always set on 0/10, but whose capacitor would have a very smal value... While a passive pickup played through 900ft of standard cable would sound like an axe with a tone pot @ 0/10 + a 0.047µF cap. :-))

                        Now, our rigs are more or less sensitive to "stray capacitance". So, nothing replaces personal experiments.

                        Again, good luck in your quest!
                        Interesting. Oddly enough: the Blaze doesn't have a tone pot. But I ain't messing with that guitar. Might be worth a try on my black Jackson (you know: try tame the beast a little more). Got a pile of caps. lying around (and actually also yesterday while experimenting I've bypassed the tone pot and switch too i.e. going straight from bridge pickup to volume to cap. to out) so will give it a shot and see. Put it this way: would be great if it took out some of the excruciating highs and moved the resonant frequency to somewhere in the mids.??? Problem solved if it works!!! LOL!!!

                        In just typing my other response above I'm also just wondering about the different types of guitars and woods and just how much of a difference this could or would make. The white Jackson (the one that is "blooming" for me) is much lighter (in weight) than my black Jackson and MUCH lighter than the Blaze. I THINK it has an Alder body. I use the word THINK because when I ordered it that's what I was told but yet on Jackson's own website it also has Poplar body just like the other Jackson. Given the difference in sheer weight something don't make sense I guess.

                        Regards,

                        Dale.
                        Last edited by dpaterson; 11-25-2018, 08:08 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

                          Hey Dale,

                          First, let me say good luck. I don';t know that I have ever been on any quest for exactly "that" tone. Hope you find it before your head explodes or whatever happens to the micro-tonally obsessed.

                          Next - The recorded Viv Campbell tones are generally regarded as fairly weak. So not sure why you must have this tone. The tone in that vid seems fairly generic arena rock with some pushed mids to me.

                          Now for the tough love part: If you tried "every plug in known to man" and a Kemper - one of two things: One, try the SuperDistortion. The other is "It's just you."

                          I am fairly confident I could grab most any humbucker guitar, Floyded or not, and get something pretty darn close to that with my Roland Cube 30, a little bit of extra mids, a little reduction of highs on the guitar tone knob, and just a touch of delay. I'd play for beer that with a Jackson DX10 and a Duncan Distortion, or an Ibanez RG4ex and a ToneZone with a graphic eq that I could nail it inside 20 minutes. As mentioned - to my ears also, there is nothing Uber-special about that sound.

                          So good luck. when you do find that magic combo, let us know...
                          Originally posted by Bad City
                          He's got the crowd on his side and the blue jean lights in his eyes...

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

                            Originally posted by freefrog View Post
                            Hi,

                            I find incredibly difficult to recommend a pickup when a tone is defined by fingers + pick + strings + inner electronics + guitar + FX's + (pre)amp + cab + miking + mixing board + post prod reEQing of the track + mp3 compression + soundcard + amp + speakers or headphones + ears of the listener (non limitative list).
                            Yeah....that may be true when we are out to 8 decimal points where only a dog can tell.

                            But practically:

                            Amp = 65-85%
                            FX = 15% (If relevant)
                            Pickup = 10%
                            Guitar itself = 5% (STRAT, LP, TELE, 335)
                            And everything else put all together (Strings, picks, cables, blah blah blah) is at best 5%

                            Fingers are the intangible, but I don't think Viv has magic finger tone. Lynch? Yeah...Clapton? Yeah....Beck - hell yeah. Vivian Cambell?

                            Meh - Amp + EQ+Delay done.
                            Originally posted by Bad City
                            He's got the crowd on his side and the blue jean lights in his eyes...

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Vivian Campbell's Dio tone from 1984 - which pickups

                              Originally posted by Aceman View Post
                              Hey Dale,

                              First, let me say good luck. I don';t know that I have ever been on any quest for exactly "that" tone. Hope you find it before your head explodes or whatever happens to the micro-tonally obsessed.

                              Next - The recorded Viv Campbell tones are generally regarded as fairly weak. So not sure why you must have this tone. The tone in that vid seems fairly generic arena rock with some pushed mids to me.

                              Now for the tough love part: If you tried "every plug in known to man" and a Kemper - one of two things: One, try the SuperDistortion. The other is "It's just you."

                              I am fairly confident I could grab most any humbucker guitar, Floyded or not, and get something pretty darn close to that with my Roland Cube 30, a little bit of extra mids, a little reduction of highs on the guitar tone knob, and just a touch of delay. I'd play for beer that with a Jackson DX10 and a Duncan Distortion, or an Ibanez RG4ex and a ToneZone with a graphic eq that I could nail it inside 20 minutes. As mentioned - to my ears also, there is nothing Uber-special about that sound.

                              So good luck. when you do find that magic combo, let us know...
                              I completely agree with Aceman here
                              "So understand/Don't waste your time always searching for those wasted years/Face up, make your stand/And realize you're living in the golden years"
                              Iron Maiden - Wasted Years

                              Comment

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