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Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

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  • #31
    Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Originally posted by PFDarkside View Post
    IMO playing a tube amp is like driving an old carbureted sports car with manual steering. It’s a visceral, “real” experience. My best and favorite tones have come from a tube amp turned loud with somewhere between 0 and 2 pedals, preferably with vintage style (aka passive, traditional construction) pickups. I like all the tones you can get out of modeling, my board has a few “amp in a box” pedals, but the best tones have always been then simplest.

    I’ve never played an AxeFX, Helix or Kemper through a loud tube amp into a guitar cab, that may be a revelation for me... but for now I’m happy.
    NAILED IT!!
    Guitars
    Kiesel DC 135, Carvin AE 185, DC 400, DC 127 KOA, DC 127 Quilt Purple, X220C, PRS Custom 24, Washburn USA MG 122 proto , MG 102, MG 120.
    Amps PRS Archon 50 head, MT 15, Mesa Subway Rocket, DC-5, Carvin X50B Hot Rod Mod head, Zinky 25watt Blue Velvet combo.

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    • #32
      Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

      Originally posted by ErikH View Post
      Nice. Those MkIII amps are crazy dynamic. I would do the same as you and roll off the volume for clean (or clean-ish) tones. Sold my 100 watt head a few years ago. I miss the tone but I don't miss the weight.

      Thankfully, I'm able to get the same dynamics from current amp, a Vox AV30 combo. Nice and light but LOUD!!!
      Sold this combo but at some point intend to find a 50 watt head. LOVE these amps but rare to play now days where I can really use a single channel combo. With a head I can crank it on stage run a cab miced in the back for many places or when playing a loud Church or outdoors run a 2/12 cab. These have great sounding loops for a little verb and delay throw a wah in the front and then a CS -3 for ebow style infinite sustain and feed back and I'm set!!
      1993 old band Carvin DC 200 MK III compressor live for the ebow style stuff and feedback.
      Last edited by Ascension; 09-04-2019, 09:25 PM.
      Guitars
      Kiesel DC 135, Carvin AE 185, DC 400, DC 127 KOA, DC 127 Quilt Purple, X220C, PRS Custom 24, Washburn USA MG 122 proto , MG 102, MG 120.
      Amps PRS Archon 50 head, MT 15, Mesa Subway Rocket, DC-5, Carvin X50B Hot Rod Mod head, Zinky 25watt Blue Velvet combo.

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

        Originally posted by NegativeEase View Post
        Whats your opinion on those settings compared to the real deal?

        also, I'm not against modelers at all if they pass muster.

        but for someone like me with about $30k in classic guitar tube amps -there's no reason for me to pay to change over to something imitating what I already have -although my big amps don't leave house or rehearsal place much -we use backline for big gigs.
        I've had Helix Native for over two years and my Helix Rack for about a year (IMO, the hardware Helix sounds a touch better, probably because of how the DI box/interface affects the sound before it gets to the plugin). As Despair said, the feel and dynamics are absolutely there. The added benefit that the Sag control gives you is a real treat, too: I turn it down on our patches using the PV Panama (5150) model and it makes the amp noticeably tighter. The stock cabs leave a lot to be desired for me, but I use third party IRs (primarily from OwnHammer and ML Sound Lab) direct to front of house, and even our FOH engineer says that they sound so similar to our actual cabs that he actually prefers that we go direct because of the added benefit of consistency.

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        • #34
          Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

          So the only modeling amp I have ever had was a really low cost Fender that came with the guitar I had purchased. It was fun at the time but the more I delved into guitars/amps I was really drawn to tube amps since my thought was if it broke I should be able to fix it and plus everywhere I looked that was what people were using.

          A bit after that I decided I wanted to build my own tube amp to learn some more about them. So I went ahead and built a very nice 50 watt Marshall clone. It was great being able to pick and choose what components I wanted in the amp along with the choice of power/preamp tubes. Great fun.

          So reading through this thread and seeing some of the brands mentioned I just did a really look over at Fractal’s webpage since I felt these type of amps had to be PC board based device’s. The second paragraph down on their flagship product stated this:
          “Two 1.0 GHz, floating-point “Keystone” Digital Signal Processors (DSPs) comprise the main audio engine. These processors are the most powerful DSPs available delivering over twice the performance of the DSPs used in our previous generation products. To feed these advanced processors we coupled 4Gb of blazing fast PC1600 DDR3 memory, hundreds of Mb of FLASH memory, a proprietary FPGA and a rich set of peripherals.”

          So just based off of that it makes it very clear they are PC based devices. My point and or question for these type of devices would be, well what happens when the “now newer DSP” comes out? Do these devices have some way of being “upgraded”, pretty much like a firmware upgrade or is the owner now holding outdated technology? In my mind, and I could be really wrong on this is, that to me they seem like a PC, almost outdated by the time you get it home.

          For a tube amp, if some new component comes out that may change the way the amp sounds and you like it, solder it in or try different tubes. What do folks who use these types of devices do?

          Again, I have never used one so my above thoughts were just a things that came to mind.

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          • #35
            Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

            Originally posted by Exojam View Post
            So the only modeling amp I have ever had was a really low cost Fender that came with the guitar I had purchased. It was fun at the time but the more I delved into guitars/amps I was really drawn to tube amps since my thought was if it broke I should be able to fix it and plus everywhere I looked that was what people were using.

            A bit after that I decided I wanted to build my own tube amp to learn some more about them. So I went ahead and built a very nice 50 watt Marshall clone. It was great being able to pick and choose what components I wanted in the amp along with the choice of power/preamp tubes. Great fun.

            So reading through this thread and seeing some of the brands mentioned I just did a really look over at Fractal’s webpage since I felt these type of amps had to be PC board based device’s. The second paragraph down on their flagship product stated this:
            “Two 1.0 GHz, floating-point “Keystone” Digital Signal Processors (DSPs) comprise the main audio engine. These processors are the most powerful DSPs available delivering over twice the performance of the DSPs used in our previous generation products. To feed these advanced processors we coupled 4Gb of blazing fast PC1600 DDR3 memory, hundreds of Mb of FLASH memory, a proprietary FPGA and a rich set of peripherals.”

            So just based off of that it makes it very clear they are PC based devices. My point and or question for these type of devices would be, well what happens when the “now newer DSP” comes out? Do these devices have some way of being “upgraded”, pretty much like a firmware upgrade or is the owner now holding outdated technology? In my mind, and I could be really wrong on this is, that to me they seem like a PC, almost outdated by the time you get it home.

            For a tube amp, if some new component comes out that may change the way the amp sounds and you like it, solder it in or try different tubes. What do folks who use these types of devices do?

            Again, I have never used one so my above thoughts were just a things that came to mind.
            Hardware is updated by buying new hardware, but firmware is updated all the time. The Helix has had very good support. They add more effects and amp models and you get it for free. The competition in this space is growing and consumers are benefiting.

            After a certain point it's not necessary to upgrade the hardware. The Helix will still sound good 50 years from now. Increasing the DSP power just lets you run more effects at a time. There'll be many more Helixes I'm sure, but I doubt the sound will be noticeably different.

            Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk

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            • #36
              Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

              Originally posted by ibanezrocks View Post
              Hardware is updated by buying new hardware, but firmware is updated all the time. The Helix has had very good support. They add more effects and amp models and you get it for free. The competition in this space is growing and consumers are benefiting.

              After a certain point it's not necessary to upgrade the hardware. The Helix will still sound good 50 years from now. Increasing the DSP power just lets you run more effects at a time. There'll be many more Helixes I'm sure, but I doubt the sound will be noticeably different.

              Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk
              Ironically, it's very unlikely that that hardware will be working anymore then, where as tube amp will sound exactly like it does and work just the same it did 50 years before.
              "So understand/Don't waste your time always searching for those wasted years/Face up, make your stand/And realize you're living in the golden years"
              Iron Maiden - Wasted Years

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              • #37
                Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                Why do people who like tubes spend so much time griping about digital and solid-state?

                Why do people who like digital and solid-state never spend any time griping about tubes?

                Seriously, if you like using tubes, that's great. If you like digital or solid-state, that's also great. If you're Plini, and have played onstage in front of legions of fans across the world before you've ever even plugged into a real amplifier, I kind of think that's even cooler than the other two.
                “I can play the hell out of a riff. The rest of it’s all bulls**t anyway,” Gary Holt

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                • #38
                  Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                  Originally posted by JB_From_Hell View Post
                  Why do people who like tubes spend so much time griping about digital and solid-state?

                  Why do people who like digital and solid-state never spend any time griping about tubes?

                  Seriously, if you like using tubes, that's great. If you like digital or solid-state, that's also great. If you're Plini, and have played onstage in front of legions of fans across the world before you've ever even plugged into a real amplifier, I kind of think that's even cooler than the other two.
                  Wait, now I'm confused... WHo's griping on here?
                  “For me, when everything goes wrong – that’s when adventure starts.” Yvonne Chouinard

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                  • #39
                    Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                    Speaking as someone who has built and modded tube, I use both. Modeling has gotten to sound good enough now with some studio knowledge helping out.

                    10 years ago, I woulda (and did) laughed at modeling.

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                    • #40
                      Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                      Funny, what I have been loving lately is my 2 Tech 21 amps, a Trademark 60 and a 10. They pre-date digital modeling, so they are sort of analog modeling.
                      Administrator of the SDUGF

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                      • #41
                        Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                        Originally posted by Mincer View Post
                        Funny, what I have been loving lately is my 2 Tech 21 amps, a Trademark 60 and a 10. They pre-date digital modeling, so they are sort of analog modeling.
                        That's the company that figured it out before most anyone
                        “For me, when everything goes wrong – that’s when adventure starts.” Yvonne Chouinard

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                          Originally posted by AlexR View Post
                          Fractal and kemper I believe are merely modelling tube amp tone via sampling a real amp. So they do nothing on their own.
                          But the entry cost is still high, and the learning curve steep..
                          Kemper profiles an actual amp. So it’s like a sample of that.

                          Fractal totally creates the model from scratch. You can go in and change the tubes or even output transformer.

                          I use a relatively cheap Marshall Code 100 combo on stage. I’m very happy with the tones I’m getting. It took a little tweaking of some of the presets, but it’s got a bunch of good patches.

                          And again, I can change things like having a JCM800 preamp into an AC30 power amp and different speakers.

                          It also has effects, so all my delays and reverbs are in the amp. And some modulation effects too.

                          People like to badmouth these amps that either never used one or just didn’t understand how to operate it. These same people complain if a guitar has more than 2 knobs. lol

                          The learning curve compared to a Fractal is very small.

                          I played bass in a classic rock cover band a few years back. The guitarist switched from a Mesa TriAxis rack setup to a Fractal AxeFX II, mainly to reduce weight. Once he got it dialed in you couldn’t tell the difference. I actually thought it had better note definition than the MESA. It also allowed him to replace another rack of effects.

                          I went with a modeling amp because when I record I use amp and effect plugins. I like to get a tone to match the song, rather than the same tone on everything. So this was an easy means to that end. It’s my second modeling amp; the last one was a Vox VT80+, which was a great little amp.

                          At gigs other guitarist come up and tell me what a great tone I was getting, and they don’t recognize the amp. I love the look on their faces when I say it’s digital. Lol. They always mutter something about how they need tubes. lol

                          Also think about all the people who run a clean amp and get all their tone from pedals. Pretty much the same thing.

                          I love a nice tube Marshall, but it’s impractical gigging around NYC. And my digital amp sounds exactly the same. Plus I get to switch from a crunchy tone to a clean Twin drenched in reverb mid song! Not impossible if you have a multi channel tube amp, but I can get way more tones on mine.

                          Here’s an example


                          Explore the largest community of artists, bands, podcasters and creators of music & audio



                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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                          • #43
                            Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                            Originally posted by NegativeEase View Post
                            Wait, now I'm confused... WHo's griping on here?
                            Griping in this case is the incessant “digital isn’t as good as tunes.”

                            This discussion is becoming akin to the 10k PAF from a decade or so ago.
                            “I can play the hell out of a riff. The rest of it’s all bulls**t anyway,” Gary Holt

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                            • #44
                              Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                              Probably the biggest gripe in digital machines in general that I have, is simply that I don't like owning stuff I can't fix myself if it breaks down.
                              "So understand/Don't waste your time always searching for those wasted years/Face up, make your stand/And realize you're living in the golden years"
                              Iron Maiden - Wasted Years

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                                Originally posted by DavidRavenMoon View Post
                                Kemper profiles an actual amp. So it’s like a sample of that.

                                Fractal totally creates the model from scratch. You can go in and change the tubes or even output transformer.

                                I use a relatively cheap Marshall Code 100 combo on stage. I’m very happy with the tones I’m getting. It took a little tweaking of some of the presets, but it’s got a bunch of good patches.

                                And again, I can change things like having a JCM800 preamp into an AC30 power amp and different speakers.

                                It also has effects, so all my delays and reverbs are in the amp. And some modulation effects too.

                                People like to badmouth these amps that either never used one or just didn’t understand how to operate it. These same people complain if a guitar has more than 2 knobs. lol

                                The learning curve compared to a Fractal is very small.

                                I played bass in a classic rock cover band a few years back. The guitarist switched from a Mesa TriAxis rack setup to a Fractal AxeFX II, mainly to reduce weight. Once he got it dialed in you couldn’t tell the difference. I actually thought it had better note definition than the MESA. It also allowed him to replace another rack of effects.

                                I went with a modeling amp because when I record I use amp and effect plugins. I like to get a tone to match the song, rather than the same tone on everything. So this was an easy means to that end. It’s my second modeling amp; the last one was a Vox VT80+, which was a great little amp.

                                At gigs other guitarist come up and tell me what a great tone I was getting, and they don’t recognize the amp. I love the look on their faces when I say it’s digital. Lol. They always mutter something about how they need tubes. lol

                                Also think about all the people who run a clean amp and get all their tone from pedals. Pretty much the same thing.

                                I love a nice tube Marshall, but it’s impractical gigging around NYC. And my digital amp sounds exactly the same. Plus I get to switch from a crunchy tone to a clean Twin drenched in reverb mid song! Not impossible if you have a multi channel tube amp, but I can get way more tones on mine.

                                Here’s an example


                                Explore the largest community of artists, bands, podcasters and creators of music & audio



                                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                                Great post, I appreciate you explaining detail and your reasoning.
                                “For me, when everything goes wrong – that’s when adventure starts.” Yvonne Chouinard

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