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Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

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  • #16
    Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    I play tube amps simply because no solid state amp will do what a really good tube amp will. For many years I played single channel high gain tube amps and used few effects. I got my cleans by backing off my guitar volume and lightening my touch not a channel switch. Solid state amps can sound good on a preset but absolutely will not do this. I still run high gain tube amps today (although all i own right now are channel switchers) and will only own an amp that will respond well to touch. Most younger guys can't do what I can with a good tube amp because they have never had to learn how. I can play sold state and make them sound good but I loose the dynamics I am used to with the tube amps so don't simple as that.
    Had several of my rigs for many years they are well maintained and bulletproof reliable so why change?
    Example is here I have for many years been almost exclusively a Worship player this is a 1991 Marshall JCM 900 MK III Dual Master Volume 2501 combo. I am running nothing but a Delay in the loop and a Wah in the front in this clip at super low volume. You could not play this this way with a single channel solid state amp!
    Last edited by Ascension; 09-04-2019, 12:01 PM.
    Guitars
    Kiesel DC 135, Carvin AE 185, DC 400, DC 127 KOA, DC 127 Quilt Purple, X220C, PRS Custom 24, Washburn USA MG 122 proto , MG 102, MG 120.
    Amps PRS Archon 50 head, MT 15, Mesa Subway Rocket, DC-5, Carvin X50B Hot Rod Mod head, Zinky 25watt Blue Velvet combo.

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    • #17
      Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

      Feel is indistinguishably close, if configuration is right. Which requires either farfield IRs and a REALLY good Full Range Flat Response amp/speaker system (and not one of the cheap, common FRFR in name only ones), or playing into a higher wattage clean power amp into same speakers as the real amp, set to same volume. Most guitarists aren't used to playing guitar and hearing only the miked up studio sound...

      A fair number of players prefer hybrids, using preamp models with a tube power amp into their favorite guitar speaker cab for the gig. Or sometimes a clean tube power amp with full amp models.

      Line 6's Powercab+ is another stab at making a speaker system for modellers that feels like a real guitar speaker and cabinet (and particularly combines well with farfield IRs, and has a selection of similarly generated speaker models built in).

      Really, the biggest remaining tradeoff in digital is inability to adjust amp behavior by swapping individual tubes, nevermind actual circuit mods, though Fractal Audio at least lets you tweak some of the key tube behaviors to taste and mix and match preamp and power amp designs. But you gain a lot of flexibility in having high quality EQs, studio-grade compressors, and other things that would otherwise require separate rack processors. Line 6 is a bit simpler, easier to use for some, with Sag, Bias, Bias X, Hum & Ripple in Helix giving you a LOT of control over the power amp behavior (and weirdly, a little Hum & Ripple have USEFUL effects in power amp tone for a lot of uses. Not something I expected at all!).

      As far as why tubes? A lot of amp designers have experience designing them. Few have experience doing DSP coding, or with realtime circuit modeling (Fractal does NOT model by sampling a real amp, though you can do tone matching, which generates an IR that captures the difference in EQ and room response for the whole amp/speaker/mic config). Still, there are some amazing digital-only amps, like the Line 6 Litigator, Badonk & Doom, or several Fractal models (I've heard them, but haven't owned Fractal & can't recall specific names). Fractal Audio has also been involved in prototyping a digital version of an amp before building a physical model, for Carol-Ann amps!

      I'm glad new amps are being made by the likes of Revv & Grammatico, and that they are making deals to get their stuff into modellers as an advertising channel for the physical amp! (Yes, people do sometimes buy their favorite model in a real tube amp. Great way to trial amps, even for people who want the ease of repair of a tube amp for live use.

      Or people like Friedman and Fryette, who seem to have some antipathy for modelers (though again, I hear a fair number of people who buy HBE-100s or the smaller variants because of the Axe-FX & Helix models of it), I'd hate to see them quit the field, even if I never actually play one of their physical amps. I don't think the Synergy amps with official preamp modules from numerous different companies would have happened if it weren't for modelers, and there's a number of guitarists I like who don't care for modelers who are switching to Synergy. I don't agree with their conclusions on digital vs tubes, but I'm happy they have an option they like!

      The dynamics really are there now. If you want the exact same response as a particular tube amp, you need it set to same volume (set model's master to same master settings as your physical amp, use a power amp that can provide same power, which in case of solid state may mean you need 2 or more times the power, particularly if the amp is rated for a lower impedance speaker than your tube amp). A lot of people try to use the modeler's ability to record same tone at lower volume, and are surprised it doesn't FEEL the same doing that. Given volume impacts things like string vibration, it's not shocking that it feels different if you let a key factor change...
      Last edited by Despair; 09-04-2019, 12:25 PM.

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      • #18
        Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

        Originally posted by NegativeEase View Post
        Whats your opinion on those settings compared to the real deal?

        also, I'm not against modelers at all if they pass muster.

        but for someone like me with about $30k in classic guitar tube amps -there's no reason for me to pay to change over to something imitating what I already have -although my big amps don't leave house or rehearsal place much -we use backline for big gigs.
        IMO modelers can perfectly replicate power amp sag. The Helix is cool because you can get sounds you couldn't out of the real amps. You can turn a normally tight amp into a spongy doom machine, or vice versa.

        The default settings are great, but there's a lot of versatility hidden in the sag and bias controls. Again, that goes back to my point about simplicity. It's not that it's hard to get good sounds, it's that you can't always avoid the temptation to tweak things forever.

        To the previous post, they also clean up with a lighter touch exactly like a tube amp. Don't confuse cheap solid state with high-end modelling amps.

        Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk

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        • #19
          Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

          Should also note that there have been more than a few solid state amps that have good touch sensitivity. Problem is, early solid state amps were NOT designed for good behavior when input was thrashed. So guitarists have a LOT of old evidence that they can't sound, or particularly, feel good. Which wasn't entirely true, but for every amp that could pull it off, there were a couple dozen models that didn't even try. (Anyone recall the "creamy" distortion claimed in the manual of the Roland JC-120? *twitch*)

          There are a lot of analog purists are using FET-based pedals because they believe solid state & digital sound bad. Um... (;

          NegativeEase: There really isn't a lot of reason to change, if the convenience of being able to quickly access all your sounds in one box doesn't appeal. If you want dead-on replications, a lot of people love the Kemper for the ability to profile their own amp with their own tubes/mods/speakers at their preferred settings. Others don't want the hassle of having to do the work learning studio engineering techniques (microphone placement is a fiddly business!). I think Helix has the best UI, and very competitive tones. But Fractal's Axe-FX III is the king for people who want model variety (you can often hack up a model of a particular map that isn't modelled, if you know enough about how the amp is designed, plus combine that with a Tone Match. Almost as effective as a Kemper, plus you get circuit-accurate models of I forget how many hundreds of guitar amps, though it's behind Helix on bass amp support). Whether you prefer models or profiles depends on your workflow. I think the integrated effects in Helix & Axe-FX outweigh any accuracy benefits of the profiling approach (which are debatable, I've heard of people having trouble getting accurate profiles of unusual circuits, though others claim the opposite).
          Last edited by Despair; 09-04-2019, 12:38 PM.

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          • #20
            Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

            Most of my amps are older than I am and some still have their original tubes. If it's not broken, why fix it?
            green globe burned black by sunn

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            • #21
              Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

              i have some old amps but they sure dont have the original tubes. they are reliable and sound good so i dont really look for other things often

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              • #22
                Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                IMO playing a tube amp is like driving an old carbureted sports car with manual steering. It’s a visceral, “real” experience. My best and favorite tones have come from a tube amp turned loud with somewhere between 0 and 2 pedals, preferably with vintage style (aka passive, traditional construction) pickups. I like all the tones you can get out of modeling, my board has a few “amp in a box” pedals, but the best tones have always been then simplest.

                I’ve never played an AxeFX, Helix or Kemper through a loud tube amp into a guitar cab, that may be a revelation for me... but for now I’m happy.
                Oh no.....


                Oh Yeah!

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                • #23
                  Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                  Originally posted by Ascension View Post
                  I play tube amps simply because no solid state amp will do what a really good tube amp will. For many years I played single channel high gain tube amps and used few effects. I got my cleans by backing off my guitar volume and lightening my touch not a channel switch. Solid state amps can sound good on a preset but absolutely will not do this. I still run high gain tube amps today (although all i own right now are channel switchers) and will only own an amp that will respond well to touch. Most younger guys can't do what I can with a good tube amp because they have never had to learn how. I can play sold state and make them sound good but I loose the dynamics I am used to with the tube amps so don't simple as that.
                  Had several of my rigs for many years they are well maintained and bulletproof reliable so why change?
                  Example is here I have for many years been almost exclusively a Worship player this is a 1991 Marshall JCM 900 MK III Dual Master Volume 2501 combo. I am running nothing but a Delay in the loop and a Wah in the front in this clip at super low volume. You could not play this this way with a single channel solid state amp!
                  Nice. Those MkIII amps are crazy dynamic. I would do the same as you and roll off the volume for clean (or clean-ish) tones. Sold my 100 watt head a few years ago. I miss the tone but I don't miss the weight.

                  Thankfully, I'm able to get the same dynamics from current amp, a Vox AV30 combo. Nice and light but LOUD!!!

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                  • #24
                    Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                    I'd say part of it is the hands-on aspect, at least for those who have an electronics slant to their interests. You can shape the tone of the amp by swapping tubes, speakers, cabinet materials. On the other side of the guitar cable, you have the guitar pickups, electronics, body and neck materials. The strings are a factor, even the paint on the guitar. It just encourages tinkering. You don't get as much of that with the digital stuff. On the other hand, digital is only limited by the quality of the programming and your imagination. I think it has its own "beat" to it.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                      Through a PA and recorded, my Fractal is amazing. In a room, my amps sound better. Onstage, my amps sound better, but the Fractal fits better in a recorded mix (and is easier to mix out front). When it comes down to it, know which one I use?
                      The one that is closest to the front door on my way out.
                      Administrator of the SDUGF

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                      • #26
                        Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                        Did I ever mention that I have a Spidervalve? You know, the one that has a Line 6 modeler feeding into a Bogner designed tube amp?
                        I wonder what ever happened to those?

                        Sent from my Alcatel_5044C using Tapatalk

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                        • #27
                          Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                          Originally posted by Demanic View Post
                          Did I ever mention that I have a Spidervalve? You know, the one that has a Line 6 modeler feeding into a Bogner designed tube amp?
                          I wonder what ever happened to those?

                          Sent from my Alcatel_5044C using Tapatalk
                          What was the verdict on it?
                          “For me, when everything goes wrong – that’s when adventure starts.” Yvonne Chouinard

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                          • #28
                            Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                            Well, I love mine, so you can draw your inferences from there.

                            Sent from my Alcatel_5044C using Tapatalk

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                            • #29
                              Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                              Originally posted by rbc View Post
                              On the other side of the guitar cable, you have the guitar pickups, electronics, body and neck materials. The strings are a factor, even the paint on the guitar.
                              One thing about solid state and digital "amps". They make a fantastic "reference" amp for tinkering with guitars. Tubes are wonderfully flexible, but also a bit on the inconsistent side when it comes to their tone.

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                              • #30
                                Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

                                My guess is that the partnership ended...either it was for a closed period, or one of the parties wanted out.
                                Administrator of the SDUGF

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