Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 234567 LastLast
Results 101 to 120 of 134

Thread: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

  1. #101
    Administrator Mincer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Tampa Bay area, Florida, USA
    Posts
    22,896

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Would this be a good time to discuss the new modeling Twin and Deluxe?
    Dave, Ambassador/Writer/Artist for Seymour Duncan

    My Guitar, Gear, and Music Webpage

    Gear pics and more on my Instagram.

  2. #102
    HardtailPisser ibanezrocks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Age
    31
    Posts
    4,106

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dystrust View Post
    Have you ever opened a Line 6 amp? Everything about it screams "CHEAP" from the thin PCB to the board-mounted pots and jacks. I'm not saying that tube amps are automatically better; Peaveys and Crates look pretty similar under the hood, and have similar reputations for poor reliability. It's more accurate to say that some things are built to last while others aren't, and most modelers fall into the latter category.



    My laptop gets hot, but it doesn't have any tubes. Maybe there are other electronic components that give off heat as well, like CPUs or power amp transistors...



    I think this says more about general build quality than it does about specific maintenance. Line 6 knows that modelers become obsolete pretty quickly in the grand scheme of things, so they don't bother building them to last. Their products are also designed to hit a specific price point.

    On the other end of the scale I heard of a Soldano SLO owned by a studio in the UK. The studio flooded and the amp spent 2 weeks underwater, but after drying it out they fired it up and it still worked. The pots weren't even scratchy because SLOs are designed to be bullet-proof, and you pay for that.
    So we're comparing cheap modelers to expensive tube amps? Why not the modelers that actually show what the technology can do? If we're talking about which technology is better, we have to compare the best: we should be talking Helix and not Spyder or pocket pod.

    Again, he's trying to push one example of a broken cheap amp onto the entirety of digital technology. It's an absurd strawman.

    Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk

  3. #103
    Mojo's Minions dystrust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    West St. Paul, MN
    Age
    39
    Posts
    4,658

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ibanezrocks View Post
    So we're comparing cheap modelers to expensive tube amps? Why not the modelers that actually show what the technology can do? If we're talking about which technology is better, we have to compare the best: we should be talking Helix and not Spyder or pocket pod.

    Again, he's trying to push one example of a broken cheap amp onto the entirety of digital technology. It's an absurd strawman.

    Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk
    High end modelers like a Helix, Kemper, or AxeFx are built like a computer because that's essentially what they are. Compared to a Spyder or Pocket POD the PCBs are heavier and the pots and other components are better quality, but they're still not in the same league as the "expensive tube amp". Amps like the SLO and many vintage tube amps were designed and built to last for decades while most amps built recently aren't.

    I haven't tried a Helix, and I didn't care for the Kemper I tried, but I thought the AxeFx was awesome. The main reason I don't own one is because they're really expensive. The second reason is that I can get my Marshall serviced if something goes wrong, whereas a broken AxeFx makes a great (and very expensive) door stop.
    Quote Originally Posted by crusty philtrum View Post
    And that's probably because most people with electric guitars seem more interested in their own performance rather than the effect on the listener ... in fact i don't think many people who own electric guitars even give a poop about the effect on a listener. Which is why many people play electric guitars but very very few of them are actually musicians.

  4. #104
    Ultimate Tone Slacker Jacew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    2,469

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dystrust View Post
    High end modelers like a Helix, Kemper, or AxeFx are built like a computer because that's essentially what they are. Compared to a Spyder or Pocket POD the PCBs are heavier and the pots and other components are better quality, but they're still not in the same league as the "expensive tube amp". Amps like the SLO and many vintage tube amps were designed and built to last for decades while most amps built recently aren't.

    I haven't tried a Helix, and I didn't care for the Kemper I tried, but I thought the AxeFx was awesome. The main reason I don't own one is because they're really expensive. The second reason is that I can get my Marshall serviced if something goes wrong, whereas a broken AxeFx makes a great (and very expensive) door stop.
    Actually, if they would have been built like computers, you could switch standardized parts in them, easily re-install and retrofit software, upgrade and such. Then they would last.

    But they are not.
    "So understand/Don't waste your time always searching for those wasted years/Face up, make your stand/And realize you're living in the golden years"
    Iron Maiden - Wasted Years

  5. #105
    Mojo's Minions dystrust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    West St. Paul, MN
    Age
    39
    Posts
    4,658

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacew View Post
    Actually, if they would have been built like computers, you could switch standardized parts in them, easily re-install and retrofit software, upgrade and such. Then they would last.

    But they are not.
    They're proprietary computers. My remark refers more to how the hardware is constructed, not the software they run.
    Quote Originally Posted by crusty philtrum View Post
    And that's probably because most people with electric guitars seem more interested in their own performance rather than the effect on the listener ... in fact i don't think many people who own electric guitars even give a poop about the effect on a listener. Which is why many people play electric guitars but very very few of them are actually musicians.

  6. #106
    LoveMachineologist jeremy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    albany, ny
    Age
    42
    Posts
    29,790

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    the SLO is a great amp but i think the older amps are a better example of lasting. there are plenty of 50's fender amps out there still running strong with a minimal amount of upkeep

  7. #107
    Ultimate Tone Slacker Jacew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    2,469

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dystrust View Post
    They're proprietary computers. My remark refers more to how the hardware is constructed, not the software they run.
    Yea. I meant that too.
    "So understand/Don't waste your time always searching for those wasted years/Face up, make your stand/And realize you're living in the golden years"
    Iron Maiden - Wasted Years

  8. #108
    Mojo's Minions dystrust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    West St. Paul, MN
    Age
    39
    Posts
    4,658

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy View Post
    the SLO is a great amp but i think the older amps are a better example of lasting. there are plenty of 50's fender amps out there still running strong with a minimal amount of upkeep
    Agreed. I cherry picked the SLO as an extreme example of engineering and build quality.
    Quote Originally Posted by crusty philtrum View Post
    And that's probably because most people with electric guitars seem more interested in their own performance rather than the effect on the listener ... in fact i don't think many people who own electric guitars even give a poop about the effect on a listener. Which is why many people play electric guitars but very very few of them are actually musicians.

  9. #109
    Super Toneologist
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    in a box X_x
    Posts
    1,158

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Old amps had fewer components & simpler designs. Newer gen ones come with multi channels, eq & what not. These are good to buy in a region that has amp techs, US, UK, Aus are regiions that will have experienced amp techs spreadout widely, so fixing it is not difficult. Other parts of the world dont have an abundance of good techs that deal with tube tech & buying a single mesa head alone would cost 2-3 times the cost of modern top tier modelling, taxes & custom duties are a headache where i live.

    I have got great results with tech21 gear into a ss(digital) power amp into a speaker cabinet. The whole thing ended up being cheap & maintanence free so far. I would not go back to tube during this age of time, good to have one around for reference but for gigging there are better options as alternatives for me that are lighter & space saving too.

  10. #110
    Super Toneologist
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    in a box X_x
    Posts
    1,158

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dystrust View Post
    High end modelers like a Helix, Kemper, or AxeFx are built like a computer because that's essentially what they are. Compared to a Spyder or Pocket POD the PCBs are heavier and the pots and other components are better quality, but they're still not in the same league as the "expensive tube amp". Amps like the SLO and many vintage tube amps were designed and built to last for decades while most amps built recently aren't.

    I haven't tried a Helix, and I didn't care for the Kemper I tried, but I thought the AxeFx was awesome. The main reason I don't own one is because they're really expensive. The second reason is that I can get my Marshall serviced if something goes wrong, whereas a broken AxeFx makes a great (and very expensive) door stop.
    The most expensive part on an fractal pcb board is the processor, if it fails or the board fails, you ship the unit back to them for repairs. They replace the board or the processor, its no longer a door step. Would you keep a amp as a huge door step because the transformer failed?
    Gig a 50 yr old amp on regular weekly basis via air with interconnecting flights, how much will this cost because ata case will be required, that will raise the weight + luggage charges, also can it really survive such journeys for next 10yrs without repairs? Thats probably why giiging pros embrace newer modeling tech. Its about convenience first, followed by performance & then the sound to most of them. They have guys to dial in their modelers for them, something not everyone that buys these is capable of. I wouldnt buy one myself either because my needs are limited. Its easier to replace a fractal unit with another if it failed, its 50+ amp & fx unit, thats cheaper than replacing a single amp head that cost the same as it & heavy to lug around.

  11. #111
    Toneologist regan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    846

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Why would you eat a tofu steak that tastes 'identical' to beef when an actual steak is freely available in the next aisle?

    When digital modelling/solid state breaks away from cloning old voxes, fenders & marshalls & do something 'new' then they may bring value to the table.

    My opinion is why would I spend thousands on a kemper rig when I can get an ac15 and/or deluxe reverb at a similar price point, & like many have pointed out they don't become obselete & will always sound like a vox or fender

    The only worry is actual valves may go out of production or become unavailable one day but I don't see that happening in my lifetime
    Last edited by regan; 10-06-2019 at 03:00 PM.

  12. #112
    Mojo's Minions dystrust's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    West St. Paul, MN
    Age
    39
    Posts
    4,658

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hank- View Post
    The most expensive part on an fractal pcb board is the processor, if it fails or the board fails, you ship the unit back to them for repairs. They replace the board or the processor, its no longer a door step. Would you keep a amp as a huge door step because the transformer failed?
    What do they charge to service a unit that's out of warranty or purchased used? And what does one do when they no longer make the boards or CPUs? I'm pretty sure that Dagnall hasn't made transformers since the early to mid 80s, but I can get a company like Mercury Magnetics or Heyboer to sell me a replacement transformer for a 70s Marshall. I'd be willing to bet that the original AxeFX is no longer repairable, and the Axe II will be there shortly if it isn't already.
    Quote Originally Posted by crusty philtrum View Post
    And that's probably because most people with electric guitars seem more interested in their own performance rather than the effect on the listener ... in fact i don't think many people who own electric guitars even give a poop about the effect on a listener. Which is why many people play electric guitars but very very few of them are actually musicians.

  13. #113
    HardtailPisser ibanezrocks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Age
    31
    Posts
    4,106

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by regan View Post
    Why would you eat a tofu steak that tastes 'identical' to beef when an actual steak is freely available in the next aisle?

    When digital modelling/solid state breaks away from cloning old voxes, fenders & marshalls & do something 'new' then they may bring value to the table.

    My opinion is why would I spend thousands on a kemper rig when I can get an ac15 and/or deluxe reverb at a similar price point, & like many have pointed out they don't become obselete & will always sound like a vox or fender

    The only worry is actual valves may go out of production or become unavailable one day but I don't see that happening in my lifetime
    Why? Because you get 100 amps + cabs + pedals for the price of one tube amp.

    Several modelers include amp models that don't exist in the real world, it's just not a marketing point because most people buy gear to imitate someone else's tone, tube players included.

    If all you want is one amp and you don't care about easy recording or low volume practicing, by all means a tube amp is the easiest way to get what you want. But comparing modeling amps to tofu is just a lame attempt to sound tough.

    Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk

  14. #114
    Administrator Mincer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Tampa Bay area, Florida, USA
    Posts
    22,896

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    For me, the ease and weight of a Fractal for a gigging player is the reason I chose it. I don't use a ton of amps inside of it, but man, it is light and sounds great through every PA I've ever used it through. Festival soundpeople tell me that it is super-easy to mix, too.
    Dave, Ambassador/Writer/Artist for Seymour Duncan

    My Guitar, Gear, and Music Webpage

    Gear pics and more on my Instagram.

  15. #115
    Ultimate Tone Slacker Jacew's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Finland
    Posts
    2,469

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ibanezrocks View Post
    Why? Because you get 100 amps + cabs + pedals for the price of one tube amp.

    Several modelers include amp models that don't exist in the real world, it's just not a marketing point because most people buy gear to imitate someone else's tone, tube players included.

    If all you want is one amp and you don't care about easy recording or low volume practicing, by all means a tube amp is the easiest way to get what you want. But comparing modeling amps to tofu is just a lame attempt to sound tough.

    Sent from my BlackBerry using Tapatalk
    I think technical limitations can work out great to fuel creativity.
    "So understand/Don't waste your time always searching for those wasted years/Face up, make your stand/And realize you're living in the golden years"
    Iron Maiden - Wasted Years

  16. #116
    Ultimate Tone Slacker Nostalgic Distortion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    The Great North Woods!!!
    Age
    86
    Posts
    1,800

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    This entire thread is sacrilegious....

    Tubes are king!!!

    Plus somehow I don’t see kids two generations down the line still getting excited about a Helix the way younger people are still digging vintage Fender’s, Marshall’s, Etc. today???

    Maybe though, I’m sure Leo wasn’t thinking that people would be spending thousands of dollars for, & still playing through, his early 1950’s & 1960’s circuits nearly 70 years later?
    I live in Northern New Hampshire, we shoot the things we don't understand here???

  17. #117
    Sock Market Trader GuitarStv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    14,846

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nostalgic Distortion View Post
    This entire thread is sacrilegious....

    Tubes are king!!!

    Plus somehow I don’t see kids two generations down the line still getting excited about a Helix the way younger people are still digging vintage Fender’s, Marshall’s, Etc. today???

    Maybe though, I’m sure Leo wasn’t thinking that people would be spending thousands of dollars for, & still playing through, his early 1950’s & 1960’s circuits nearly 70 years later?
    I dunno about that.

    I've seen kids these days getting excited about the awesome sound quality of . . . cassette tapes. :P


    No telling what trendy fads will pop up in the future.
    Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

  18. #118
    Toneologist regan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Posts
    846

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by ibanezrocks View Post
    Why? Because you get 100 amps + cabs + pedals for the price of one tube amp.
    Who actually needs 100 amps + cabs + pedals? IMO for what I want you need a scooped BF type amp, a mid heavy Brit style amp couple of modulation pedals an OD, delay & wah, other genres may want another setup (jc120 & boogie for example) it's a cliche but tone is in the fingers, many albums (and indeed artists careers) have been achieved with as little as 1 to 3 amps. Of those 100+ amps 90% are going to be in the ball park of what I mentioned & the other 10% would not be usable to me aside from novelty value


    Quote Originally Posted by ibanezrocks View Post
    But comparing modeling amps to tofu is just a lame attempt to sound tough.
    Nope, it's a fair analogy, both are products intended to synthesise/facsimile existing products which are readily available sorry to trigger you but it's not acting tough it's stating the obvious, as you said yourself
    Quote Originally Posted by ibanezrocks View Post
    If all you want is one amp and you don't care about easy recording or low volume practicing, by all means a tube amp is the easiest way to get what you want.
    So buying steak/valve amp(s) is the easiest way to get what you want.

    And you'll have what you want for life, I remember when the 1st Jurrasic Park was released everybody thought the special fx were incredible & indiscernible from real life, now 25 years later people can notice the flaws & holes, I wouldn't be surprised if in 25 years we'll lament 'Kemper' tones on to be classic records & think this would've sounded so much better if they'd just used a Marshall & SM57

  19. #119
    Sock Market Trader GuitarStv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    14,846

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by regan View Post
    Who actually needs 100 amps + cabs + pedals? IMO for what I want you need a scooped BF type amp, a mid heavy Brit style amp couple of modulation pedals an OD, delay & wah, other genres may want another setup (jc120 & boogie for example) it's a cliche but tone is in the fingers, many albums (and indeed artists careers) have been achieved with as little as 1 to 3 amps. Of those 100+ amps 90% are going to be in the ball park of what I mentioned & the other 10% would not be usable to me aside from novelty value
    This is exactly why I ended up with my Traynor. It does a pretty good BF type sound on the clean channel, and a decent lo-gain Marshall-y thing on the gain side. Pretty much checks all the boxes I want from an amp. And it still feels like option overload sometimes.




    :P
    Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas Adams
    This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

  20. #120
    PenultimateTone Member Demanic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Phoenix area.
    Age
    52
    Posts
    14,819

    Default Re: Better technology-so why are tube amps here ?

    Did I happen to mention the now discontinued Spidervalve?
    Tofu crusted steak.
    And before this is taken the wrong way, I like tofu.

    Sent from my Alcatel_5044C using Tapatalk

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •