Gain pedals in the loop?

[LLL]

Re: Gain pedals in the loop?

Reverb into high gain tends to terrible. Lower gain, or with almost entirely pedal gain in front of the reverb tends to work fine. Also depends on whether you want lo-fi or hi-fi reverb. I very strongly prefer most time domain effects in the loop or even better in post effects. Exceptions abound, of course. Univibe in front of amp sounds far smoother and more Hendrixy than applied in post...

A lot of modern amps have instrument level effects loops or switchable loop levels, which is perfect for experimenting with pedals. And there's some strange (and poorly documented by their makers in many cases) dirt boxes whose best tones are straight into the effects loop or power amp. MT-2 Metal Zone is a prime example. In front of amp, tends to sound muffled and be very hard to avoid the can of bees. Straight into power amp, it's massively easier to get useful sounds out of, as Ola Englund demonstrated, not that he's anywhere near the first to point that use out, it's been known on guitar forums for ages before youtubers started talking about it.

Most clean channel circuits in particular chop a lot of mids out, so unless the pedal is built to correct for a Fendery circuit, it's no surprise some pedals, especially ones designed to work as a preamp replacement or even some amp-in-a-box designs work better bypassing the preamp.

Non-preamp pedals do tend to work best in front of a preamp. And it's very rare for any gain source to work better in the loop (as opposed to instead of the preamp) than before the amp, unless it's being used to correct for poor output level of the loop, or for a loop/effect level mismatch.

Yes.

[GuitarStv]

Re: Gain pedals in the loop?

My point about pedals in the loop isn’t the effect type, and where that should go in the signal path, it’s about the expected input and output levels, impedance, etc.

There are certainly many effects loops designed to work with rack gear . . . but that's not the purpose of a loop.

The purpose of the effect loop is to allow the insertion of effects (rack or pedal) after an amp's pre-amp.

[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Gain pedals in the loop?

There are certainly many effects loops designed to work with rack gear . . . but that's not the purpose of a loop.

The purpose of the effect loop is to allow the insertion of effects (rack or pedal) after an amp's pre-amp.

Traditionally effects loops were always for line level devices. That’s why they often have volume controls. Plus the types of effects you would insert there, like reverb, has until recently always been rack units.


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[DavidRavenMoon]

Re: Gain pedals in the loop?

“Get your levels right

Another element that is sometimes overlooked is ensuring your effects can handle the line-level output that is typically sent from your amplifier’s effects loop. Depending on the pedal, hitting your stompbox with a line-level signal can overload the circuit, resulting in less-than-desirable performance. Read your pedal’s manual to find out if it can hang with that stronger signal.”

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/use-amps-effects-loop/

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[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Gain pedals in the loop?

Look up Ola's Metal Zone video. Granted, me makes pretty much everything sound awesome, and the MT-2 is no exception.

If I'm using my Super Reverb, obviously all pedals go in front (as there's no loop). The Super also has a ton of headroom, so all my dirt is coming from the pedals. When I use my Micro Dark, I alternate between putting my delay/reverb pedal in front or in the loop. If I'm getting drive from the Orange, I'll put it in the loop.

Seeing how electric guitars weren't originally intended to make the sounds we tend to make with them, I'm not overly concerned about the original purpose of an effects loop. Most people would say two wah pedals on a board is dumb, but I like how it sounds so I'll do that, too

[dystrust]

Re: Gain pedals in the loop?

Traditionally effects loops were always for line level devices. That’s why they often have volume controls. Plus the types of effects you would insert there, like reverb, has until recently always been rack units.


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“Get your levels right

Another element that is sometimes overlooked is ensuring your effects can handle the line-level output that is typically sent from your amplifier’s effects loop. Depending on the pedal, hitting your stompbox with a line-level signal can overload the circuit, resulting in less-than-desirable performance. Read your pedal’s manual to find out if it can hang with that stronger signal.”

https://www.sweetwater.com/insync/use-amps-effects-loop/

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The loop in my 2555 Jubilee is definitely line level, and lots of stomp boxes sound pretty lousy with levels that hot. I'm used to running my board out front, so I've never tried the loop in my 2525H.

[jeremy]

Re: Gain pedals in the loop?

older designs like the 2555 are definitely designed for rack gear but lots of more modern designs are switchable since at this point way more people use pedals than rack gear

[Despair]

Re: Gain pedals in the loop?

There's a lot of amps that only have instrument-level loops now, too. Because racks are dead and everyone uses pedalboards. *sigh*

[ErikH]

Re: Gain pedals in the loop?

My old Marshall JCM 900 MkIII loop had a level control on it. I had to dial it back all the way down when running a Boss DD-3 through it. It was a killer setup too. The Ibanez DE-7 was great with it too. In the mid-90's I had a Rocktron Intellifex running through it and half-way on the loop was good enough for it.

But, an overdrive or distortion in the loop? Just no. Unless it is a "pre-amp" like an AMT Legend series pedal or the like. In that case, as mentioned the guitar plugs in to the pedal and out of the pedal to the effects return, which goes right to the power amp after the tone stack (and before the phase inverter in a tube amp). But send/return on a gain pedal, yuck! Yes, I've tried it.

[Coma]

Re: Gain pedals in the loop?

One thing to watch out for, keep you master low on the gain pedal and roll it up after you engage it. Sometimes your amp’s master is pre-loop so you can get a huge volume blast if you aren’t careful.

Just moved my clean boost into the FX loop. Knowing fully well the risks mentioned, I bottomed out the gain and volume knobs on it before connecting my board. Then spent the following 15 minutes troubleshooting and checking and re-cheking connections because for some mysterious reason no sound was coming through when the boost pedal was engaged

[ErikH]

Re: Gain pedals in the loop?

Now, a clean, and I mean clean boost can work well in the loop, especially on one channel amps and when you get your drive from the amp. Since the max headroom of the preamp has been reached, the only way to boost for a lead is either the sound man does it at the board (old school) or something post preamp, like a clean boost in the loop. It could be touchy but it'll work.

[devastone]

Re: Gain pedals in the loop?

Just moved my clean boost into the FX loop. Knowing fully well the risks mentioned, I bottomed out the gain and volume knobs on it before connecting my board. Then spent the following 15 minutes troubleshooting and checking and re-cheking connections because for some mysterious reason no sound was coming through when the boost pedal was engaged

Now, a clean, and I mean clean boost can work well in the loop, especially on one channel amps and when you get your drive from the amp. Since the max headroom of the preamp has been reached, the only way to boost for a lead is either the sound man does it at the board (old school) or something post preamp, like a clean boost in the loop. It could be touchy but it'll work.

Yes, a high headroom boost can work great in the loop, assuming your turn the knobs up.

[Van Noord]

Re: Gain pedals in the loop?

The effects return jack is similar to a power amp in.

You aren't using the effects "loop" if you're only using the power amp in. (loop return)

...and it does work, and makes many previously labeled garbage distortion pedals become quite useable.