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If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups?

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  • If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups?

    I've got a couple electric guitars. Some are louder than others. Unfortunately, they've all got different pickups. Does an electric that's louder acoustically end up being louder through the amp, all other things being equal? My intuition would be no . . . because pickups just translate the vibration of your strings into a signal. A guitar can be louder because the body resonates without actually making the strings vibrate more. But I haven't actually done an experiment to check this.
    Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

    Originally posted by Douglas Adams
    This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

  • #2
    Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

    Well a louder guitar implies a better resonant loop and thus more efficient energy transfer perhaps in the string waveform motion which would directly induce more electrical energy in the pickup circuit BUT with semi hollow bodies and holly bodies, all of this energy is not returned in the same manner -so for a louder solid body having higher output -I'd say yes. but for acoustically chambered or bodies instruments -it would be very complicated to know.

    Obviously Pickup proximity to the string waveform is the biggest factor in overall passive output.
    “For me, when everything goes wrong – that’s when adventure starts.” Yvonne Chouinard

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    • #3
      Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

      The body can’t make the strings vibrate more; the laws of physics dictate that the string will lose energy over time. Materials in the guitar will absorb that energy at greater or lesser rates, starting with the bridge saddles and nut. If the guitar string has enough energy after that point, it will subsequently make the guitar body vibrate/resonate as it loses energy to the body at whatever rate. The body resonates and moves air molecules around it. So a larger resonation/ loud unplugged sound are a side effect of the string having enough energy to do that, vs. say another instrument, where the string’s energy is lost more quickly (maybe a loose bridge saddle, or mechanical connections/materials that damp enough of the string energy before it gets to the body. The first guitar would have a louder plugged and unplugged sound, the latter quieter.
      Last edited by Silence Kid; 10-30-2019, 09:27 AM.
      Originally posted by King Buzzo
      I love when people come up to me and say “Your guitar sound was better on Stoner Witch, when you used a Les Paul. “...I used a Fender Mustang reissue on that, dumbass!

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      • #4
        Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

        Sound is energy lost from the system, which would sap the vibration of the string wouldn't it? That would actually indicate that for electric guitars the quietest body/neck combo acoustically would likely cause the string to resonate better.
        Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

        Originally posted by Douglas Adams
        This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

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        • #5
          Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

          Originally posted by GuitarStv View Post
          Sound is energy lost from the system, which would sap the vibration of the string wouldn't it? That would actually indicate that for electric guitars the quietest body/neck combo acoustically would likely cause the string to resonate better.
          Maybe - But wood *does* resonate/move sound molecules when you apply energy to it (as a string does) - and most guitars are made of wood. If you're talking about a string embedded between two nails in a concrete parking lot, then nothing will resonate and the plucked string will probably be very quiet, but vibrate strong/for a very long time. If you're talking an acoustic guitar, then you will have a lot of resonance/movement of air molecules, but the string vibration will be damped and as a result won't sustain as long as between two nails embedded in a parking lot. Materials/mass has an effect, and any two different solid body electrics are somewhere between those two extremes; the wood vibrates because it does, and it needs more string energy in the first place in order to resonate more.
          Last edited by Silence Kid; 10-30-2019, 09:48 AM.
          Originally posted by King Buzzo
          I love when people come up to me and say “Your guitar sound was better on Stoner Witch, when you used a Les Paul. “...I used a Fender Mustang reissue on that, dumbass!

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          • #6
            Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

            Originally posted by Silence Kid View Post
            The body can’t make the strings vibrate more; the laws of physics dictate that the string will lose energy over time. Materials in the guitar will absorb that energy at greater or lesser rates, starting with the bridge saddles and nut. If the guitar string has enough energy after that point, it will subsequently make the guitar body vibrate/resonate as it loses energy to the body at whatever rate. The body resonates and moves air molecules around it. So a larger resonation/ loud unplugged sound are a side effect of the string having enough energy to do that, vs. say another instrument, where the string’s energy is lost more quickly (maybe a loose bridge saddle, or mechanical connections/materials that damp enough of the string energy before it gets to the body. The first guitar would have a louder plugged and unplugged sound, the latter quieter.
            The body and resonate loop through the bridge nut and tuners through the stiffness and material of the neck and body dictates efficiency -ie energy preserved and lost in the string motion and thus more energy induced into the pickups.

            So yes the body has everything to do with the strings vibration.

            I can show you this on a spectral analyzer all day long.
            “For me, when everything goes wrong – that’s when adventure starts.” Yvonne Chouinard

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            • #7
              Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

              Somewhat relatedly, I’ve heard people say the unplugged sound quality has little to do with the electric sound quality. I think that’s complete BS, as I’ve never heard a dead POS sound great plugged in, and vice versa.
              “I can play the hell out of a riff. The rest of it’s all bulls**t anyway,” Gary Holt

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              • #8
                Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                Originally posted by NegativeEase View Post
                The body and resonate loop through the bridge nut and tuners through the stiffness and material of the neck and body dictates efficiency -ie energy preserved and lost in the string motion and thus more energy induced into the pickups.

                So yes the body has everything to do with the strings vibration.

                I can show you this on a spectral analyzer all day long.
                I agree the body affects the string's vibration; but it can't 'add to' the string's vibration, as I interpreted the OP's post. The body couldn't 'boost' the string - but as you state, it can preserve it more or less.
                Originally posted by King Buzzo
                I love when people come up to me and say “Your guitar sound was better on Stoner Witch, when you used a Les Paul. “...I used a Fender Mustang reissue on that, dumbass!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                  Don't ask players questions like this and expect to reach a consensus...there isn't any.

                  Just look at this thread: LINK

                  For every opinion that the acoustic sound of an electric guitar *does* matter, there's an anecdotal example where it *doesn't*.

                  Best bet is to 1) Not dismiss a guitar simply because it isn't acoustically vibrant and 2) Plug it in and try it for yourself!

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                  • #10
                    Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                    Seems like you are just the man for the job to set up an experiment!
                    Oh no.....


                    Oh Yeah!

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                    • #11
                      Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                      Originally posted by Silence Kid View Post
                      I agree the body affects the string's vibration; but it can't 'add to' the string's vibration, as I interpreted the OP's post. The body couldn't 'boost' the string - but as you state, it can preserve it more or less.
                      Yeah, sorry if I implied otherwise. That's exactly what I'm meaning. the resonant loop between the nut and bridge and all of the materials between affect the efficiency of the string energy either resonating at maximum movement or less so -and BTW that's not to suggest that maximum transfer of energy to the string movement will necessarily sound the best for a player of course. -it just will keep as much transduction into the pickup circuit as possible -for good or for bad.
                      “For me, when everything goes wrong – that’s when adventure starts.” Yvonne Chouinard

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                      • #12
                        Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                        Originally posted by masta' c View Post
                        Don't ask players questions like this and expect to reach a consensus...there isn't any.

                        Just look at this thread: LINK

                        For every opinion that the acoustic sound of an electric guitar *does* matter, there's an anecdotal example where it *doesn't*.

                        Best bet is to 1) Not dismiss a guitar simply because it isn't acoustically vibrant and 2) Plug it in and try it for yourself!
                        All of it goes into the final tonal product -every material affects the outcome -the question is really -does your ear notice it enough to be worth addressing it? That is if your ear can tell at all? and once you make those decisions, do pedals, amps, speaker, sound reinforcement and other instruments and playing to a largely less than musically knowledgeable audience make any of those upstream guitar nuance tone decisions worth it for the final product.

                        Considering the world's greatest players will sound unbelievable on a Yamaha Pacifica through a Peavey Bandit -I'd say all the tonal nuances and maximizing our tonal improvements through gear and material selection is really something more important for us less than incredibly gifted players.
                        “For me, when everything goes wrong – that’s when adventure starts.” Yvonne Chouinard

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                        • #13
                          Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                          There are several schools of thought on this one; perhaps they would best be called schools of opinion.

                          What's undeniable is that vibration transferred to the body & neck is lost to the string. This is basic physics.

                          But opinions differ widely as to how this translates in actual playing.

                          A string will sustain longer and have better treble response if there is minimal vibration transferred to the body and neck (because high frequencies carry less kinetic energy than lows and so are more easily damped). I think of this as "inherent" sustain. It's why back in the 70s people favored heavy brass hardware and very dense body materials like metal, heavy wood, and even stone.

                          Necks affect it too, that's why rigid necks have brighter tone with maple generally sounding brighter than mahogany, multi-piece laminated necks being brighter still, and metal necks being brightest of all.

                          However, not all of us prefer a bright sounding guitar with a very stiff neck. And in a guitar that's louder unplugged, the same easier transfer of energy between strings and instrument also goes the other way when amplified: ambient sound energy vibrating the guitar - especially the neck - can flow more easily back to the strings.

                          This is the magic of liveliness and you can feel a lively guitar take off at much lower volume than a stiff heavy one. I think of this as "live" sustain.

                          On another forum that's less welcoming than this one, I was basically dismissed for proposing this. Some tried to cite science which (they said) proves that very little energy can get from the strings to the neck or body.

                          However, anybody that's actually played a guitar knows that you can feel the body & neck vibrate when played. And science tells us that with very few exceptions, when energy transfer occurs it generally behaves the same way in both directions.

                          Another angle is that when sound is shared more freely between guitar and strings, the nature of the neck & body will exert more influence on the tone, because there's more energy bled away from the strings and the frequencies affected can vary from one piece of wood to another.

                          I used to try out a couple of dozen brand new Strats or Les Pauls side by side: same model, same year, same type of wood, same hardware & pickups. They weren't all exactly the same, and some were really quite different from each other.

                          Myself, I generally favor a more lively feel, even if it isn't as bright, even if it doesn't sustain as long when unplugged. I once had a broken Gibson headstock repaired and when the guitar came back it was brighter but had lost some of its lively feel. I've heard of players who actually prefer repaired headstocks because of the extra brightness, but for me liveliness is paramount. As nice as that Les Paul was, I sold it eventually.

                          Now, all of that being said - and as comforting as it would be to have a universal formula- none of it is a hard & fast rule. I've had heavy guitars that were still lively at volume, and some guitars that were pretty strong unplugged but didn't really sound great or come alive when amplified.

                          Generalities are just that, and some guitars will defy preconceptions. As others have said, it isn't wise to write a guitar off just because it doesn't fit a qualification like sounding loud unplugged.

                          They can surprise you.
                          Last edited by eclecticsynergy; 10-30-2019, 03:16 PM.
                          .
                          "You should know better by now than to introduce science into a discussion of voodoo."
                          .

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                          • #14
                            Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                            I would think having the pickups unpotted affects this.
                            Administrator of the SDUGF

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                            • #15
                              Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                              Originally posted by Mincer View Post
                              I would think having the pickups unpotted affects this.
                              I agree. If a guitar has a lively body, unpotted pickups should be more responsive to that than potted ones.
                              I've been tempted to swap my Antiquities into a different guitar to test this.
                              But they sound so good where they are that I'm reluctant to remove them.
                              .
                              "You should know better by now than to introduce science into a discussion of voodoo."
                              .

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