banner

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

    Acoustic volume is dependant on the way the body top transfers vibration to surrounding air You can have semihollows much acoustically louder that don't sustain any more or less than other solid bodies that are 'quieter'.......so its not a question of more or less as most people simplistically seem to argue.

    The relationship of energy in a guitar is perhaps one of the most misunderstood parts of physics by the layperson ever. For some unknown reason, the notion that you have perhaps 5-10 times the energy you ever put into picking already stored in the guitar at rest is a factor that either escapes people, or they ignore it.
    Most/all of your sustain come from this potential energy and the inherent momentum that comes with it. The very dispersal of energy in one extreme of the strings motion (and the minute compression of the wood) merely charges the body/neck to release energy in the opposite direction with very little in the way of loss at all.
    So the vibration of the body is in fact the very thing that is helping your guitar maintain its energy.
    The string's mass to surface area ratio and the damping effect of air would slow its energy very quickly if you had very little mass or momentum behind it.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

      Originally posted by AlexR View Post
      For some unknown reason, the notion that you have perhaps 5-10 times the energy you ever put into picking already stored in the guitar at rest is a factor that either escapes people, or they ignore it.
      Most/all of your sustain come from this potential energy and the inherent momentum that comes with it.
      That's not how it works. You cannot indefinitely store 5-10 times the energy of the string in the form of potential energy in the body of the guitar. You are proposing that there is perpetually a large amount of potential energy in the guitar ready to be converted to kinetic energy, that never gets burned up. This is a violation of the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

      As for the whole acoustic volume versus electric volume, does it really matter? Honestly, I've never had an amp where I felt that at 10 I needed more volume.
      You will never understand How it feels to live your life With no meaning or control And with nowhere left to go You are amazed that they exist And they burn so bright
      Whilst you can only wonder why

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

        I honestly can't tell which answers are earnest pseudoscience and which ones are bad-faith trolling anymore.
        ---------------------------
        The most popular thread I've ever made was 1) a joke and 2) based around literally the most inane/mundane question I could think of. That says something about me, or all of you, or both.

        https://forum.seymourduncan.com/show...or-for-a-Strat

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

          This question will NEVER get resolved. However, it is interesting to hear different opinions on the subject.

          Here's mine...
          Since physics was mentioned, the most "elastic" materials will give back the most energy from that which was initially put into the system. We laypeople seem to think that "elastic" means flexible/rubbery/mold-able/reform-able. Sometimes that would seem so. But not quite. You've all seen the toy that has several balls suspended by strings and when the end ball hits the next, the energy is transferred to the opposite end ball without the middle balls moving (ideally). The higher the elasticity of the balls, the more precisely this is true. The hardest, most solid materials are generally the most "elastic" (in physical terms) and the energy produced by that first ball will remain in the system for a long time. If you put rubber balls in this toy, they will bounce well at first, then they will get chaotic, and they will lose energy very quickly.

          Acoustic guitars are WAY different creatures than electric guitars. The wood that gives good sound output and great tonal spectrum is usually a soft wood (such as spruce). (How often do you see an acoustic with an ebony soundboard? Not that they don't exist, but there it is a matter of tone preference). For maximum output acoustics are designed with as few moving/unstable parts which absorb energy, as possible (basically the bridge and nut).

          There are many factors which cause an electric guitar to sound louder when unplugged. But because of the comparatively small amount that this is (compared to pickups) you can almost take that out of the equation entirely. However, it has been my personal experience that this DOES have an affect on the tone of the guitar when plugged in. The louder unplugged, the fuller the tone plugged in.

          My disclaimer...these are generalities and there will always be exceptions.
          Last edited by GuitarDoc; 10-31-2019, 09:12 AM.
          Originally Posted by IanBallard
          Rule of thumb... the more pot you have, the better your tone.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

            Originally posted by GuitarDoc View Post
            However, it has been my personal experience that this DOES have an affect on the tone of the guitar when plugged in. The louder unplugged, the fuller the tone plugged in.
            I don't think I've played a semi-hollow that was quieter unplugged than any solid body guitar, and fully hollow are louder than semi. Do you believe that to have full tone one must therefore play a semi or fully hollow bodied electric?
            Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

            Originally posted by Douglas Adams
            This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

              Originally posted by GuitarStv View Post
              I don't think I've played a semi-hollow that was quieter unplugged than any solid body guitar, and fully hollow are louder than semi. Do you believe that to have full tone one must therefore play a semi or fully hollow bodied electric?
              Honestly, acoustic and semi hollow bodies must be discussed completely different than a solid body -as Acoustics and Semis are designed to take a portion (if not as much as possible in an acoustics case) of the energy and transfer energy into sound pressure waves somewhat secondary or totally irrespective of the pickups efficiency of transduction -whereas in most cases a solid body guitar are not (unless chambered etc).. they are designed to maximize transduction into the pickup circuit.

              It's almost like to separate threads needed to discuss the physics.

              And then we can start several guitar religions afterwards...
              “For me, when everything goes wrong – that’s when adventure starts.” Yvonne Chouinard

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                Originally posted by NegativeEase View Post
                Honestly, acoustic and semi hollow bodies must be discussed completely different than a solid body -as Acoustics and Semis are designed to take a portion (if not as much as possible in an acoustics case) of the energy and transfer energy into sound pressure waves somewhat secondary or totally irrespective of the pickups efficiency of transduction -whereas in most cases a solid body guitar are not (unless chambered etc).. they are designed to maximize transduction into the pickup circuit.

                It's almost like to separate threads needed to discuss the physics.

                And then we can start several guitar religions afterwards...
                The purpose of acoustic vs. solid body design is different - but since both of them have bodies attached that *do* on some level vibrate the air and make sound (one by design, the other basically as a symptom/side-effect,) I think there's room for limited comparison. The piece of the discussion that's maybe missing is, 'what are the causes of some solid-body guitars being louder than others un-amplified.' There are a few reasons an unplugged electric can quieter than the one next to it, with potential that any of those reasons would create a correlating quiet or louder sound plugged-in.
                Last edited by Silence Kid; 10-31-2019, 09:56 AM.
                Originally posted by King Buzzo
                I love when people come up to me and say “Your guitar sound was better on Stoner Witch, when you used a Les Paul. “...I used a Fender Mustang reissue on that, dumbass!

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                  Originally posted by Chistopher View Post
                  That's not how it works. You cannot indefinitely store 5-10 times the energy of the string in the form of potential energy in the body of the guitar. You are proposing that there is perpetually a large amount of potential energy in the guitar ready to be converted to kinetic energy, that never gets burned up. This is a violation of the first and second laws of thermodynamics.

                  As for the whole acoustic volume versus electric volume, does it really matter? Honestly, I've never had an amp where I felt that at 10 I needed more volume.
                  Sorry bud, but there are plenty of cases that disprove your idea of the guitar's operation......you need way more reading on this area before you understand this part of physics.

                  For one, I've never said that the energy is perpetual....we all know notes die after time, so this seems a patently absurd notion in the first place. So its either your misreading of what I said, or deliberate misconstruing more like.

                  The guitar holds the strings tension only due to the structure being placed under tension....its why you need a trussrod after all....to straighten the neck to account for string tension bowing it. So for sure there is energy stored in the guitar. When the note dies, it is back in equilibrium with the string tension still the same as it was before. Again, stored in the guitar once the note dies.

                  When you pluck the string you add more energy.....it is the act of taking the guitar out of equilibrium (similar to the Newtons Cradle) that charges the tensioned wood and string to move the other way.
                  Unlike the Newtons cradle which uses gravity to assist, it is more like a spring that is pulling the string ever more strongly to return to neutral.....which then overshoots and the process happens again and again.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                    What about all the stored energy in the ATOMS of the guitar itself? If we could harness and release that, the tone would be... Explosive.
                    ---------------------------
                    The most popular thread I've ever made was 1) a joke and 2) based around literally the most inane/mundane question I could think of. That says something about me, or all of you, or both.

                    https://forum.seymourduncan.com/show...or-for-a-Strat

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                      Originally posted by Silence Kid View Post
                      The purpose of acoustic vs. solid body design is different - but since both of them have bodies attached that *do* on some level vibrate the air and make sound (one by design, the other basically as a symptom/side-effect,) I think there's room for limited comparison. The piece of the discussion that's maybe missing is, 'what are the causes of some solid-body guitars being louder than others un-amplified.' There are a few reasons an unplugged electric can quieter than the one next to it, with potential that any of those reasons would create a correlating quiet or louder sound plugged-in.
                      You can do the research for the next few years to try and find the answer to that. But in the end it doesn't really matter. So knock yourself out. While you're at it, determine the ultimate thickness and type of wood which should be the cap/top of a solid body to get the most final amplitude out of the system (guitar), and if wood density or grain pattern also have an affect. I'd be interested to know why one wound string may sound louder than another wound string comparing the ratios of one alloy of winding and/or core wire to the other.

                      I'm sure that these will each have some affect on the volume level and that all of these can be precisely scientifically measured. I'm sad to think that I will probably be passed on to the other side by the time you finally have some reliable data, but I take comfort in knowing that no matter what your results show, it will prove that for all practical purposes...it doesn't matter anyway.
                      Originally Posted by IanBallard
                      Rule of thumb... the more pot you have, the better your tone.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                        Originally posted by AlexR View Post
                        Sorry bud, but there are plenty of cases that disprove your idea of the guitar's operation......you need way more reading on this area before you understand this part of physics.

                        For one, I've never said that the energy is perpetual....we all know notes die after time, so this seems a patently absurd notion in the first place. So its either your misreading of what I said, or deliberate misconstruing more like.

                        The guitar holds the strings tension only due to the structure being placed under tension....its why you need a trussrod after all....to straighten the neck to account for string tension bowing it. So for sure there is energy stored in the guitar. When the note dies, it is back in equilibrium with the string tension still the same as it was before. Again, stored in the guitar once the note dies.

                        When you pluck the string you add more energy.....it is the act of taking the guitar out of equilibrium (similar to the Newtons Cradle) that charges the tensioned wood and string to move the other way.
                        Unlike the Newtons cradle which uses gravity to assist, it is more like a spring that is pulling the string ever more strongly to return to neutral.....which then overshoots and the process happens again and again.
                        If you say so boss. You've lost all credibility with that last post, and the stuff you got right in this one is not as big an effect as you make it out to be.
                        You will never understand How it feels to live your life With no meaning or control And with nowhere left to go You are amazed that they exist And they burn so bright
                        Whilst you can only wonder why

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                          I've been doing some thinking about this. Let's focus on string vibrations. This is what an electric guitar pickup is 'seeing' and converting to signal, so should be all we care about when discussing loudness and sustain of an electric guitar.



                          1. A plucked string held between two anchor points vibrates. As it vibrates it loses small amounts of energy from friction with the air (nothing we can do about that, few guitarists are able to play in a vacuum).

                          2. When a string is plucked, it vibrates. But there's a maximum amplitude that a string can vibrate, and the gauge (mass) of the string and the pitch it's tuned to determines this. Heavier strings will sustain for longer (check the sustain of the low E on a bass vs the high E on an electric guitar). Energy initially enters the system from the plucking action, so the heavier string must therefore be able to accept/store more energy before maxing out.

                          3. If the two anchor points holding the string are deform-able and not completely rigid, these deformations will absorb energy from the vibrating string. A steel guitar neck will sustain longer and louder than a guitar neck made of rubber. The wood that a neck is made of, the inclusion of a truss rod, the stability of the joint used to hold the headstock (if any) all contribute to the rigidity of a guitar neck and thus to the anchoring of one of the points . . . so will have an impact on sustain.

                          4. Sound is mechanical energy lost from the vibration of a string via radiant waves. A plucked string will produce some sound as it vibrates though the air, but this is usually pretty minimal. An acoustic guitar works to make loud noise by robbing some of the energy from the string to vibrate the flat top (through the bridge). The top of the acoustic guitar then vibrates a large quantity of air and we hear a loud, resonant sound. (Heavy strings on an acoustic guitar produce less sustain than lighter strings on an acoustic guitar because the heavier strings vibrate the bridge and the top of the guitar more, which causes chaotic vibration at the anchor points. This vibration slows the string down more quickly.)



                          From point 4 I think that it's clear that production of (any) sound is evidence of energy leaving the vibrating string system. Therefore the louder that an electric guitar is acoustically, the more vibration will be robbed from the string sounding and the less signal a pickup will 'see'. An acoustically quiet guitar is not losing sound energy and thus is more likely to be efficiently transmitting your music to the speaker.


                          The only real exception to this would be when playing a guitar at high volumes. A guitar that is acoustically loud is more likely to feedback. The top resonates sympathetically with the noise coming from the speakers, which causes a positive feedback loop - body resonating causes strings to resonate, which causes the pickup to get more signal, which causes the speaker to produce more signal. That's why a hollow jazzbox or semi-hollow guitar will howl like a banshee when you plug it into a Metal Zone where a Les Paul will be comparatively well-behaved. An acoustically loud guitar gives you this feedback effect at lower volumes than an acoustically dead guitar.


                          There's one other thing to consider. Point 3 indicates the necessity of minimal deformation from the anchor points (bridge and nut, or bridge and fret for fretted chords). We've all played/heard dead sounding guitar bodies that aren't acoustically resonant. There are a variety of ways that a body/neck system can rob energy from a vibrating string without making much sound:
                          - The bridge could deform slightly absorbing energy
                          - The body or neck could be softer/mushier, absorbing this energy
                          - The nut or fret could be improperly seated, and give slightly to absorb some energy

                          You might hear this energy being absorbed (probably as a kind of buzz), or it might be largely released as heat. I think the latter accounts for 'dead' sounding guitars . . . where they're set up properly and play OK, but don't seem to give much back to the amp. A guitar that's dead sounding for this reason will impact what you hear when plugged in.




                          The reason I think that this is a contentious question is that there are two 'right' answers:

                          If you want to optimize signal from an electric guitar, an acoustically quiet guitar is probably a good place to start looking. The guitar should be acoustically quiet, but the strings should feel like they ring for a long time. If you are often playing at high volume on the edge of feedback, you might find that an acoustically loud guitar is the best place to start looking (and might be drawn towards unpotted or even slightly microphonic pickups). This type of guitar will get you to that 'edge of feedback' point more easily, which you can use to manipulate and more than make up for the loss of volume/sustain due to sound vibrations.

                          And we should all stay the hell away from acoustically quiet guitars without much sustain.



                          NOTE - This response ignores the benefits of energy loss. This is not always a bad thing. None of us are used to hearing a pure signal - so some energy loss in the mids, lows, or highs may well reduce sustain and signal to the amp . . . but will also give a guitar it's characteristic sound. Loss of highs might make a strat sound particularly sweet, loss of low mids might cause an LP to cut through better than others. I still think that an acoustically quiet guitar without much sustain is likely to suck though.
                          Last edited by GuitarStv; 11-01-2019, 01:10 PM.
                          Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

                          Originally posted by Douglas Adams
                          This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                            Easy. The one that sounds louder is more hollow than the other. More air, more resonance. Compare a weight relieved one to a regular one for example.

                            Stop wasting your resources doing research on this bull, and start playing.

                            Gesendet von meinem ASUS_X00RD mit Tapatalk

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                              I think we can have a discussion without attacking, right?
                              Administrator of the SDUGF

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: If an electric guitar is acoustically louder, does this translate through pickups

                                I’m sure that there’s a bunch of science involved in the real answer... all of which I am COMPLETELY unqualified to address, so here are my gut feelings on the subject:

                                1) There are tons of factors that affect an electric guitar’s sound and feel. String composition, string gauge, scale length, body & neck materials, nut, bridge, tuners, player’s mood, player, electronics... the list goes on and on.

                                2) It’s very difficult to isolate anything in this mess of factors because sometimes the combinations matter more than the individual components.

                                3) Pickups make a bigger difference than anything else to the end sound.

                                4) Amps & effects make a bigger difference than pickups or even guitars.

                                5) Thinking this hard makes my head hurt.

                                Conclusion: There are too many factors for there to be a magic formula and too many experts with different opinions available on the internet. I personally try (not always successfully) to just be open-minded about any guitar until I’ve actually tried it out.

                                Therefore my answer to the original question, whether acoustic volume affects amplified volume, is a solid definite maybe... but I doubt that it’s enough to matter.


                                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                                Originally posted by The Commodores?
                                "Chicken Brown Chicken Brown Cow"

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X