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The best cap material for tone pot

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  • #16
    Re: The best cap material for tone pot

    Originally posted by GuitarStv View Post
    If you're having issues with cavity items grounding, you need to put some heat shrink around the bare wires in the circuit . . . not use a ridiculously overpriced part. And honestly, that's probably something you should do anyway, rather than hoping that a slightly thicker wire won't potentially bend or be knocked about ever.

    Near as I can figure, the only real reason to use PIO/orange drop/whatever the flavour of the week for capacitors is today is vanity. Some people just really like the look of them in wiring cavities. That's why those fake bumblebee caps that Gibson was selling for a load of money make lots of sense. They're cosmetically right. If you often open up your wiring cavity to stare at the sexiness . . . knock yourself out. But it makes no difference to the tone your guitar puts out.
    It isn't just for personal staring, as much as outward bragging. You have to take pics to post on social media and forums, and say 'Look at my super clean wiring, bro'.
    Administrator of the SDUGF

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    • #17
      Re: The best cap material for tone pot

      This week, on 'Pimp my harness' Xibit will use TWO .01 uF capacitors in parallel (one paper in oil, and one orange drop) to radically "improve" the sound of tone put wired with a single .022 uF capacitor. Note that all hookup wire will be solid core 8 ga . . . required to handle the blistering power of a metal guitarist's pickups.


      :P
      Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

      Originally posted by Douglas Adams
      This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

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      • #18
        Re: The best cap material for tone pot

        The machine reads differences in tone between different cap materials of the same value and I can certainly hear differences. I'm not sure why you're saying they will unequivocally sound the same.
        Last edited by Clint 55; 12-10-2019, 05:40 PM.
        The things that you wanted
        I bought them for you

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        • #19
          Re: The best cap material for tone pot

          i usually use orange drops or mallory 150s since thats what i have tons of. the value matters much more to me than the type of cap. i still have some guitars with the little ceramic disk, is there a difference? not that youll hear on stage

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          • #20
            Re: The best cap material for tone pot

            About the "placebo effect": on a discussion about capacitor types on an electronics forum a guy joined in who said he was an engineer for a big capacitor company, and he addressed some of the issues that exist with signal transmission in capacitors, mainly:

            1) Variations in amplitude (volume) across the frequeny spectrum. No material on earth has a perfectly even resistance across the frequency spectrum, so there will be signal coloring.
            For example, one of two common orange drops types (715 or 716), clearly accentuates the highs more than the other (I forget which is the brighter one). They are the exact same type, but one is rolled up into a cilincer and the other is a slightly squashed cilinder, which means the thickness of the dielectric varies across the shape of the cap, as well as inner pressure on the dielectric, causing a difference in signal transmission between the two types. One of the two is brighter and it's quite noticeable when used as a coupler or a cathode cap in an overdriven guitar amp gain stage.

            2) Uneven variations in phase shifts across the frequeny spectrum.
            Our brains are experts at detecting phase shifts in sounds, as it is how we perceive whether a sound is distant or near (regardless the volume), and whether a sound is approaching or moving away from us. So if you think one cap sounds more "open" and the other more "focused", that's likely not your imagination.

            The factors that cause these distortions include but are not limited to:
            The inherent frequency characteristics of the used dielectric, anode, cathode materials.
            Microscopic vibrations that originate from electrons moving back and forth in the dielectric medium affecting certain frequencies within the signal.
            Uneven resistance, inductance, stray currents etc. across the frequeny spectrum.
            Uneven thickness of the dielectric across the capacitor.
            Pressure cause by tightly rolling up the capacitor, etc.

            These things all color the sound but aren't considered destructive because (within audio range) the effect is just that: a coloring. However, these imperfections do play a significant, deleterious role in high-frequency ultrasonic applications and so it's a topic of much technological and scientific research.
            Last edited by WDeeGee; 12-10-2019, 08:28 PM.

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            • #21
              Re: The best cap material for tone pot

              Originally posted by AlexR View Post
              We all have our preferences.....price being quite low on my list. I'd rather the neatness, and the fact that a lot of hookup wire flexes - so legs of exposed components make contact with other components. I've had more than one short from cavity items grounding after time and being transported/used etc.
              I like Mallory caps for that reason. Being horizonta, small, and long legged, they're really easy to just drop in neatly in the harness.
              "So understand/Don't waste your time always searching for those wasted years/Face up, make your stand/And realize you're living in the golden years"
              Iron Maiden - Wasted Years

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              • #22
                Re: The best cap material for tone pot

                Originally posted by WDeeGee View Post
                About the "placebo effect": on a discussion about capacitor types on an electronics forum a guy joined in who said he was an engineer for a big capacitor company, and he addressed some of the issues that exist with signal transmission in capacitors, mainly:

                1) Variations in amplitude (volume) across the frequeny spectrum. No material on earth has a perfectly even resistance across the frequency spectrum, so there will be signal coloring.
                For example, one of two common orange drops types (715 or 716), clearly accentuates the highs more than the other (I forget which is the brighter one). They are the exact same type, but one is rolled up into a cilincer and the other is a slightly squashed cilinder, which means the thickness of the dielectric varies across the shape of the cap, as well as inner pressure on the dielectric, causing a difference in signal transmission between the two types. One of the two is brighter and it's quite noticeable when used as a coupler or a cathode cap in an overdriven guitar amp gain stage.

                2) Uneven variations in phase shifts across the frequeny spectrum.
                Our brains are experts at detecting phase shifts in sounds, as it is how we perceive whether a sound is distant or near (regardless the volume), and whether a sound is approaching or moving away from us. So if you think one cap sounds more "open" and the other more "focused", that's likely not your imagination.

                The factors that cause these distortions include but are not limited to:
                The inherent frequency characteristics of the used dielectric, anode, cathode materials.
                Microscopic vibrations that originate from electrons moving back and forth in the dielectric medium affecting certain frequencies within the signal.
                Uneven resistance, inductance, stray currents etc. across the frequeny spectrum.
                Uneven thickness of the dielectric across the capacitor.
                Pressure cause by tightly rolling up the capacitor, etc.

                These things all color the sound but aren't considered destructive because (within audio range) the effect is just that: a coloring. However, these imperfections do play a significant, deleterious role in high-frequency ultrasonic applications and so it's a topic of much technological and scientific research.
                I have a bridge to sell you.
                Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

                Originally posted by Douglas Adams
                This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

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                • #23
                  Re: The best cap material for tone pot

                  Originally posted by WDeeGee View Post
                  About the "placebo effect": on a discussion about capacitor types on an electronics forum a guy joined in who said he was an engineer for a big capacitor company, and he addressed some of the issues that exist with signal transmission in capacitors, mainly:

                  1) Variations in amplitude (volume) across the frequeny spectrum. No material on earth has a perfectly even resistance across the frequency spectrum, so there will be signal coloring.
                  For example, one of two common orange drops types (715 or 716), clearly accentuates the highs more than the other (I forget which is the brighter one). They are the exact same type, but one is rolled up into a cilincer and the other is a slightly squashed cilinder, which means the thickness of the dielectric varies across the shape of the cap, as well as inner pressure on the dielectric, causing a difference in signal transmission between the two types. One of the two is brighter and it's quite noticeable when used as a coupler or a cathode cap in an overdriven guitar amp gain stage.

                  2) Uneven variations in phase shifts across the frequeny spectrum.
                  Our brains are experts at detecting phase shifts in sounds, as it is how we perceive whether a sound is distant or near (regardless the volume), and whether a sound is approaching or moving away from us. So if you think one cap sounds more "open" and the other more "focused", that's likely not your imagination.

                  The factors that cause these distortions include but are not limited to:
                  The inherent frequency characteristics of the used dielectric, anode, cathode materials.
                  Microscopic vibrations that originate from electrons moving back and forth in the dielectric medium affecting certain frequencies within the signal.
                  Uneven resistance, inductance, stray currents etc. across the frequeny spectrum.
                  Uneven thickness of the dielectric across the capacitor.
                  Pressure cause by tightly rolling up the capacitor, etc.

                  These things all color the sound but aren't considered destructive because (within audio range) the effect is just that: a coloring. However, these imperfections do play a significant, deleterious role in high-frequency ultrasonic applications and so it's a topic of much technological and scientific research.
                  This might matter if they are used for coupling caps in a circuit, I don't buy it for tone caps that are just bridged to ground. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by a "cilincer" is, but I assume a cilinder is a cylinder?

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                  • #24
                    Re: The best cap material for tone pot

                    People from hi-fi audio equipment say that the best cap for audio is polystyrene, right after him polipropylene(not metalized, for example 715p and 716p, which is better?)
                    I want to try it, but polistyrene cap has polar + and -. So how to connect it correctly?

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                    • #25
                      Re: The best cap material for tone pot

                      They are using caps for coupling, so it does make a difference. For tone pots, the value is the most important parameter.

                      I also thought the idea in one of the early posts that ceramic capacitors change more due to humidity and temperature is interesting, especially since we use them in LEO satellites because they don't fall apart due to temperature and vacuum.

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                      • #26
                        Re: The best cap material for tone pot

                        Originally posted by Clint 55 View Post
                        The machine reads differences in tone between different cap materials of the same value and I can certainly hear differences. I'm not sure why you're saying they will unequivocally sound the same.
                        Because they DO!

                        And, no, you can't hear the difference with your ears...only with your mind.
                        Originally Posted by IanBallard
                        Rule of thumb... the more pot you have, the better your tone.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: The best cap material for tone pot

                          Originally posted by WDeeGee View Post
                          About the "placebo effect": on a discussion about capacitor types on an electronics forum a guy joined in who said he was an engineer for a big capacitor company, and he addressed some of the issues that exist with signal transmission in capacitors, mainly:

                          1) Variations in amplitude (volume) across the frequeny spectrum. No material on earth has a perfectly even resistance across the frequency spectrum, so there will be signal coloring.
                          For example, one of two common orange drops types (715 or 716), clearly accentuates the highs more than the other (I forget which is the brighter one). They are the exact same type, but one is rolled up into a cilincer and the other is a slightly squashed cilinder, which means the thickness of the dielectric varies across the shape of the cap, as well as inner pressure on the dielectric, causing a difference in signal transmission between the two types. One of the two is brighter and it's quite noticeable when used as a coupler or a cathode cap in an overdriven guitar amp gain stage.

                          2) Uneven variations in phase shifts across the frequeny spectrum.
                          Our brains are experts at detecting phase shifts in sounds, as it is how we perceive whether a sound is distant or near (regardless the volume), and whether a sound is approaching or moving away from us. So if you think one cap sounds more "open" and the other more "focused", that's likely not your imagination.

                          The factors that cause these distortions include but are not limited to:
                          The inherent frequency characteristics of the used dielectric, anode, cathode materials.
                          Microscopic vibrations that originate from electrons moving back and forth in the dielectric medium affecting certain frequencies within the signal.
                          Uneven resistance, inductance, stray currents etc. across the frequeny spectrum.
                          Uneven thickness of the dielectric across the capacitor.
                          Pressure cause by tightly rolling up the capacitor, etc.

                          These things all color the sound but aren't considered destructive because (within audio range) the effect is just that: a coloring. However, these imperfections do play a significant, deleterious role in high-frequency ultrasonic applications and so it's a topic of much technological and scientific research.

                          Well, my brain IS an oscilloscope, and it doesn't "hear" a bit of difference between different materials in caps at the same value rating. At least not in the manner that we use them for guitars.

                          People! Let's get real. Let's at least be honest with ourselves even if you can't be honest with others. NONE of you, yes even you Superman Clint with your supernatural hearing, can actually "hear" (meaning with your humanly imprecise inner ear mechanism) a difference.

                          And even if I could concede (but I won't) and acknowledge that maybe there could be an audible difference, it would be insignificantly too small to matter at all!
                          Last edited by GuitarDoc; 12-12-2019, 09:48 AM.
                          Originally Posted by IanBallard
                          Rule of thumb... the more pot you have, the better your tone.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: The best cap material for tone pot

                            I think the problem is that most multimeters won't read capacitance. So most folks depend on the value written on the cap. If you grab a .022 uF cap with +/- 10% and compare it to another one of a different material type, you could actually be comparing .0198 with .0242. And that will cause an audible difference. I've never found someone who could tell a difference in a blind test between two caps of the same measured value though.
                            Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

                            Originally posted by Douglas Adams
                            This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

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                            • #29
                              Re: The best cap material for tone pot

                              You people need halp. You say there is a difference as read by a machine then tell someone else that they can't hear it. What gives? It's very easy to hear. I used ceramic and those green chiclets I forgot the material, polyester? I watched the demo and thought I could tell a difference and decided to try them out since bassy sound is one of my favorite things to get wired. The orange drop and pio were my favorite on the demo and I tried them and they sounded great! The orange drop is nice and supple while the pio is all smooth and creamy and vintagey. It even changed the sound of the top end when I had it on a 250k pot on 10. Also, saying that someone can't differentiate between different tone colors because the values might be slightly different is like saying you can't hear the effect of A2 in 2 of the same pickups if 1 is 8.25k and the other is 8.5k. Also the argument that it can't make a difference because the top end is going to ground is not a valid argument. Different materials could (and do) filter differently and send different frequencies to ground.
                              The things that you wanted
                              I bought them for you

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                              • #30
                                Re: The best cap material for tone pot

                                Originally posted by Clint 55 View Post
                                You people need halp. You say there is a difference as read by a machine then tell someone else that they can't hear it. What gives? It's very easy to hear. I used ceramic and those green chiclets I forgot the material, polyester? I watched the demo and thought I could tell a difference and decided to try them out since bassy sound is one of my favorite things to get wired. The orange drop and pio were my favorite on the demo and I tried them and they sounded great! The orange drop is nice and supple while the pio is all smooth and creamy and vintagey. It even changed the sound of the top end when I had it on a 250k pot on 10. Also, saying that someone can't differentiate between different tone colors because the values might be slightly different is like saying you can't hear the effect of A2 in 2 of the same pickups if 1 is 8.25k and the other is 8.5k. Also the argument that it can't make a difference because the top end is going to ground is not a valid argument. Different materials could (and do) filter differently and send different frequencies to ground.
                                What were the measured values of the capacitors you used?
                                Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

                                Originally posted by Douglas Adams
                                This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

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