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Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

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  • Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

    Hi folks

    I got a Schecter Hellraiser C-1 passive with a floyd rose and a sustainiac for an absolute bargain on black friday. I love the neck on this guitar and can fly around the fretboard (I play mostly lead/virtuoso styles).

    I've decided that the sustainiac is not for me, and the bridge pickup (Schecter Brimstone 6) is far too hot for my liking (20k output). I do a lot of string skipping/economy picking and find that the pickup is so hot it picks up my palm moving on the strings as I mute and just has a fizz killing my articulation. A problem I don't have on my Fender Strat. It's a great Djent pickup aimed at modern metal, but I am an oldschool 80's/90's metal fan so it's not my cup of tea.

    I've gone ahead and ripped out all of the wiring, I plan on selling the sustainiac system and the brimstone.

    That left me with holes for 3 pots, and two mini toggles.

    I've bought myself a SD Pearly Gates Neck, and a Bareknuckle Holy Diver Bridge (Their version of a vintage JB. It was gonna be a JB but that trembucker is again too hot), as well as 3 500k cts log pots, an orange drop 22 cap and some wiring.

    The plan is to have 2 volume and 1 tone (my preferred setup) and two double throw mini toggles to coil split.


    I've searched and searched google and various websites for a diagram showing this wiring, but to no avail it's all push/pull or 3 way mini toggles. Could anyone help a brother out ?


    TLDR;

    1: I need a diagram for 2 volume, 1 tone, 3 way lever pickup selector, 2 DPDT mini-toggle switches for split coil (2 way toggles).

    2: I was also looking for advice on which bridge coil to split, I was thinking that the bobbin right next to the bridge will be too harsh, so maybe it's best to have the the other coil (the slug) sounding out when it's split. For the neck I obviously want the coil closest to the neck to sound out when it's split.

    3: Does North generally mean positive polarity in these diagrams?

    Any help you guys can give me would be greatly appreciated. I've got plans to wire it up this Saturday and am scouring the interweb in preparation.
    Last edited by Leastamongstus; 01-10-2020, 07:07 AM.

  • #2
    Re: Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

    For tone controls I'd go linear (B500k) if I was you as it's a smoother tone control. I do like the idea of the 22nf tone capacitor as it adds extra brightness. I'll link you a video to that at the bottom of the video where a guy just tries 5 or so values. All orange drops.

    With a typical ON/ON to get the most bang for your buck I'd try something inspired by a Seymour Duncan's P-rail bible wiring this way you can experiment with north vs south coils on your splits. What I did was mix and match coils on this black strat I did. I had 3 push pulls and 2 mini toggles that shaped the tone.

    Now with certain Bare Knuckle Pickups they can have different magnetic polarity, I've put two in guitars ever so I don't have that much experience they aren't too popular over in my part of the world. I've heard before you order one email them and say you're working with that pearly gates and they'll help you out putting the magnet the right way. How I approached this diagram is an early draft. In positions 1 and 3 you'll get your 4 sounds the way they should be. However in position 2. Two things can happen. The first being out of phase. The other being hum. Both can be corrected one way or another. But this will give you an idea of which coils you like better and if all goes well you'll have an extremely versatile guitar.

    Anyways here's what I'd do. Making the mini toggles 3 position such as on/on/on , or on/off/on has some advantages too so for experimentation grab some cheap ones off of ebay, amazon or similar.

    2 volumes, neck first
    1 tone
    3 way blade
    this uses two ON/ON mini toggles. DPDT as they call them.
    the volumes are decoupled so you'll get more use out of that middle position as well. If in positions 1 or 3 the guitar goes dark too quickly this is a rare time I'd suggest a treble bleed. If not reverse the black and colored wires on the volumes and it'll react how you want it to. The treble bleed I suggest is the Kinman one. With this low of a value of capacitor they suggest use any type of capacitor that isn't ceramic. One big reason we pay top dollar for capacitors is their precision. In a passive guitar really only accuracy we pay for. Heat and voltage are almost nonexistent.

    With these diagrams below I'm sure this is a good start for someone to suggest which orientation the BKP you'll need best so the middle is not out of phase or which humbucker to go with to make this wiring easier. Nothing wrong with two basic coilsplits but it's up to you as once the trial and error is over of this the only thing holding you back is your ability I mean in a very positive way.

    Here's two diagrams I drew up and the treble bleed I suggest.




    as for capacitors this is a great video on the subject
    Last edited by shadowfire90; 01-10-2020, 09:19 AM.

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    • #3
      Re: Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

      Hi shadowfire90

      Thank you so much for the very helpful post. It will take me a while to digest it as there is a lot of info there.

      I really like the ideas you're presenting. The guitar is all mahogany with a maple cap, set neck and rosewood fretboard. As such it's on the darker side so I thought the 22 cap might help balance it out a bit. The treble bleed seems like an easy mod to add so I'll definitely give it a go.

      Bareknuckle are building my pickup right now so I can email them about the magnet orientation. I was planning on wiring everything tomorrow (except the bridge pickup as I don't have it yet).

      I'll update the thread once I've had a chance to give it a go. I'll try add some photos. Oh and it's an import guitar (made in Korea) so a non USA blade switch. However I bought USA pots so I'll have to use a reamer to widen the holes slightly (I think there is 1 mm or so difference in the shaft width).

      Thanks again for the diagrams, I think i'll give the second one a go with the treble bleed mod!

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      • #4
        Re: Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

        Glad I could help. Yeah I'm actually really curious which magnetic polarity works best. The reason I bring this up is because there is a complex wiring that Fender used on the showmaster series and Ibanez does it as well on certain models and to get the coils to line up (both inner coils in a coilsplit). I'm slowly waking up but usually both inner coils split on say two stock seymour duncan 4 wire pickups aside from the P-rails set will hum like putting the bridge/neck pickups on a strat together.

        The guys at bare knuckles may help a lot more than I can in that regard for possible phase issues or just hum. This is where the original wiring came from. Scroll to the bottom
        In the final installation of the Seymour Duncan P-Rails wiring guide, we cover some of the most common P-Rails wiring diagrams.


        How the 4 sounds out of each position works is. Lets pretend they are push pulls as it's easier to write/describe instead of push pull left and right as you can change orientation very easily on a mini toggle.
        both push pulls down - standard humbucker tone
        push pull 1 up only - inner coil split
        push pull 2 up only - outer coilsplit
        both push pulls up - parallel
        start off by wiring them up like my diagram suggests and then figure out which way you like them to rotate. When I had a strat with a similar wiring I liked them pointing to the floor like wings or something silly like that is my description.

        pretty much it's a standard 2 volume 1 tone wiring. Just in the middle I approached it like a Gretsch guitar where the volumes can be turned down in the center position in a better way than a standard 2 volume setup.

        If you want something more simple though let me know. I must have 200 diagrams on my computer.
        Last edited by shadowfire90; 01-11-2020, 02:31 PM.

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        • #5
          Re: Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

          A 2-way DPDT toggle will work the same as a push-pull. You have 6 pins, the center 2 are the Common, the outer two relate to the switch position. However, whereas with a push-pull, pulling "Up" activates the top pair of pins, with a toggle, it's the opposite because of the handle and the internal contacts: "Up" on the toggle makes the connection between the lower and middle pins. This assumes the switch is mounted like a light switch - straight up and down vs lateral operation like a Strat switch. Fundamentally, it's the same principle (Up = Forward), but for the uninitiated, they may see 2 rows of 3 pins on a switch mounted for lateral operation.

          So, you can follow a push-pull diagram with a 2-way DPDT toggle. If the switch positions operate in reverse (i.e. "Down" splits but you wanted "Up" to split), rotate the toggle switch rather than rewire it.

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          • #6
            Re: Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

            I got a reply from Bareknuckle who told me that they’ll build the pickup exactly the same way as the SD, so should be no issues with orientation.

            I spent the entire evening soldering, it was a lot of fun and I learned a lot. I’ve done repair solders and single pickup installs before but that’s about it, It was a good experience wiring the guitar from scratch. I underestimated the amount of wire I would need and barely had enough to finish. (I left plenty of slack on the mini toggle switches in case I want to flip them).

            I don’t have the Bare Knuckle yet but the pearly gates is in and I’ve wired everything I could from the diagram.

            Alas, when I plugged it in I noticed a weird issue, the pickup selector is on in both directions with nothing in the middle. I Realised that I stupidly wired the import style when it’s actually a USA 3 Way blade type (Even though it was built in Korea).

            I had printed off the import version diagram and followed it, I noticed the 3 way switch looked different but counted up 8 poles and followed the same mapping as the import. Anyway, rookie move but it did end up with interesting results! I’ve been playing with the tones and noticed that its very bright, and the output is very weak, even when I really drive the amp. It does sound good though, it’s got an almost Brian May treble boost brightness to it. I’m not sure I’m hearing the humbucker at the moment due to my wiring error, hence the low output whichever way I set the switches.

            Anyway tomorrow I’ll open her up and rearrange the switch.

            I’m also with you on the linear vs log for the tone pot. The log tone pot is terrible, it sounds like it goes from 0 to 10 in a slight turn and then stays 10 all the way. So that’s got to go too.

            I wasn’t sure of the orange drop tone cap orientation so I wired it logo up, as I read that it doesn’t matter which way round it is for tone pots. I’ll update tomorrow and post some pics.

            PS: just purchased a pair of caps and resistors for two treble bleed circuits on the volume pots, as well as a linear taper pot (and lots more wire). The adventure continues!
            Last edited by Leastamongstus; 01-11-2020, 07:07 PM.

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            • #7
              Re: Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

              Thanks for the info Newcenstein. I was wondering if the DPDT and the push pull had a similar setup, being that they have the same number of poles in the diagrams. Thanks for confirming. Would I be correct in saying that the middle poles are always engaged?

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              • #8
                Re: Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

                I corrected all my wiring errors of yesterday and it's working great! I can hear the proper humbucker, parallel and split coil now. Just waiting on the bridge pickup and treble bleed components to arrive and I'll wire those in too.

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                • #9
                  Re: Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

                  Well it's not the prettiest job in the world, but it works! No buzz or grounding issues and the switches do as shadowfire90 said. I also installed two treble bleeds.

                  Click image for larger version

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                  • #10
                    Re: Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

                    My earliest projects looked messy under the hood but hey at the end of the day as long as it works right. I have a very similar wiring to what you've got in two of my guitars. One big tip is to make a tiny piece of cardboard to hold the pots or
                    switches steady and you're usually set.

                    Any other wiring questions feel free to ask we're here to help.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

                      Originally posted by Leastamongstus View Post
                      I got a reply from Bareknuckle who told me that they’ll build the pickup exactly the same way as the SD, so should be no issues with orientation.
                      If Bareknuckle truly will make it just like a SD JB, then that means that the slug coil will have North magetic polarity and the Screw coil will have South magnetic polarity, which is also true of the Pearly Gates pickup. This means
                      that the current coilsplit scheme ShadowFire provided that makes either both Inner Coils active at the same time or both Outer Coils active at the same time, would *not* be hum-canceling. To have hum-canceling, it would need to instead be one slug coil active and one screw coil active at the same time.

                      Let us know if you want hum-canceling for the coilsplits (some people don't care). If yes, shadowfire90 or i can update the scheme he posted - thanks.
                      Sanford: "The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware."

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                      • #12
                        Re: Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

                        There is a little hum on any setting other than normal humbucker (Serial) so I assume you're correct here. It's not a big deal though, mixing the PG and the BK slugs sounds surprisingly great, adds a bit of a 'wah' voice to them.

                        I really like the PG neck, it's got fat tones and cleans up very nicely with the treble bleed. There are a couple of things I am going to try, as I'm not 100% satisfied with the BK, it's a bit too trebly for my liking (Almost like i'm using a treble booster) and I can't seem to dial it out of the amp without totally flubbing the PG. So I'm going to try swap the 500k volume pot for a 250k, just on the BK and see how that sounds. I know some people recommend this for the SD JB, and as the BK Holy Diver is based on a vintage JB I reckon it's not a bad thing to try out.

                        I've also bought a .047uf cap, and I was considering swapping out the .022uf tone cap for it. But I think I'll try the 250k pot first. I don't want to over fatten the PG tone.

                        While I'm soldering it I might as well fix the hum on the coil splits, so I would really appreciate some help with that.

                        Here's how she's looking from the front -

                        Click image for larger version

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                        Thanks guys, you've all been fantastic!
                        Last edited by Leastamongstus; 02-01-2020, 08:35 AM.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

                          Very cool for the guitar. If Schecter made a version without the binding for their 7 strings I'd grab a hellraiser 7 for sure as it's the closest to my 29 fret washburn the EC-29 as I don't like toggles as much as I used to.

                          hum from coilsplits will be normal as you're isolating (focusing on) one of the coils by itself if it's in the bridge or neck position so you're ok there. This is why we call them humbuckers because before the PAF (first humbucker) the only pickups were P90 and single coils so a big selling point for Gibson was their guitars being so quiet.

                          both switches turned the opposite of series should be parallel which is hum cancelling and quiet as one coil from a pickup filters the other if that makes sense.

                          The only way to get hum cancellation out of the coilsplits is to add a component called resistors. They are dirt cheap. I was inspired watching a video "Five watt world" on youtube did where Keith was talking about the PRS DGT guitars. Resistors I'd get from Thailand. 100 of them are under 2$ American.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

                            Originally posted by shadowfire90 View Post
                            ...hum from coilsplits will be normal as you're isolating (focusing on) one of the coils by itself ...
                            Of course for a *single* split coil.

                            But i did write in my last reply that i was talking about Middle Position of the Pickup Selector switch where two splitcoils are being combined. That combination can be hum canceling. And to be hum-canceling, the two active coils need to be of opposite magnetic polarity.

                            The diagram ShadowFire90 provided does not do that in Pickup Selector Switch Middle Position but could be updated to do that.
                            Sanford: "The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware."

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                            • #15
                              Re: Wiring 2 vol 1 tone and 2 DPDT for split col

                              Any hum in position 2 at all Leastamongstus? Or just the wah like sound called out of phase. I have one of my guitars on purpose where it's out of phase with two push pulls with all hum cancelling settings in position 2. But that's more my preference.

                              If there is hum in position 2 which I actually didn't talk about at all. I was assuming that he was talking about position 1 or 3. Either way feel free to make the suggestions you think would work as this wouldn't even take a minute to fix the existing diagram.

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