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Thread: It's weird you don't see more of these...

  1. #21
    tonewood instigator
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    We could sit here and argue the theoreticals all day, but ultimately it comes down preference. I prefer round keys, others prefer flat. I find it faster and easier to get the pitch I want with round keys, others might prefer the feel of flat ones.
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  2. #22
    Mojo's Minions Masta' C's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    I bet I can be just as "precise" with either tuner for all real-world intents and purposes

    There are a lot of factors beyond leverage at play

  3. #23
    Mojo's Minions eclecticsynergy's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    Even gear ratio is a matter of personal preference. Some would rather have precise finetuning, others would rather get to the note faster.

    The tuners on my '87 PRS are pretty low ratio; they make tuning up after post-string-change stretching very quick yet I've never noticed any difficulty finding precise pitch. I have other, more modern tuners that give you very fine control, but they take more turns when changing strings. So for those I use a string winder. Not something I'm going to lose sleep over.

    Anyway, I never noticed knob type tuners before and I think it's a pretty cool idea. Not sure I really like the look of 'em on a classic guitar design like a Les Paul or a Strat. I could love the look on a more radical guitar, as others have said.

    Still, they'd give you a little extra room on a six-to-a-side headstock, where I sometimes feel the buttons are a bit crowded.
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  4. #24
    Mojo's Minions beaubrummels's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chistopher View Post
    The shape of the head can affect tuning precision. As I mentioned earlier, with a flat knob you are more likely to overshoot the desired note.

    If you want to get into mathematic and mechanical speak, they back me up as well. Longer levers from the center of rotation require less torque to rotate a given distance, with non-circular heads this distance changes as you roll the knob through your fingers. Mathematically, when you start to turn the tuners, you have your fingers on the outside applying force perpendicular to the flat surface, giving as near as makes no difference to 100% of the force from your fingers. As you rotate the key you start to push more parallel to it, making it closer and closer to 0% efficiency. The fraction of force you put into rotation the tuning key is equivalent to sin(x), where x is the angle of force against the flat surface of the tuning key.

    With the circular knob, both these figures remain constant, where on a flat knob they change depending on hand placement, leading to more required effort to tune to the same precision.
    I think all this is only true if you hold the tuners and rotate the guitar. As guitarists are humans and typically have to rotate their wrist to turn any tuning machine, nothing will ever be constant in hand/finger pressure.
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  5. #25
    Junior Member BlackhawkRise's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    Quote Originally Posted by beaubrummels View Post
    I think all this is only true if you hold the tuners and rotate the guitar. As guitarists are humans and typically have to rotate their wrist to turn any tuning machine, nothing will ever be constant in hand/finger pressure.
    If you have those round tuners, you don't need to move your wrist. You just roll the knobs between your pointer and thumb.

  6. #26
    Mojo's Minions beaubrummels's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackhawkRise View Post
    If you have those round tuners, you don't need to move your wrist. You just roll the knobs between your pointer and thumb.
    If you know anatomy, when you roll the knob between your fingers, those muscles thread through your wrist and anchor back at your elbows, so you will experience some form of friction and variation in tension whenever you use your fingers. I have tendinitis, so I feel it right away.
    Quote Originally Posted by Demanic
    Incompetence is widespread in a world that rewards mediocrity while punishing excellence.
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarFanatic
    I am currently using Skullcandy headphones I found in the garbage.
    I did find the DS-1 in the garbage.
    I once found a guitar amp in the garbage, a Peavey Studio 110. It caught fire at the first gig I played it at.. But it was at the end of it, thank god.

  7. #27
    Junior Member BlackhawkRise's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    Sure, but it's considerably less wrist action than rotating your whole hand.

    Funny how this forum is exactly how I left it. Maybe if we devise a team of people with degrees in anatomy, mathematics, physics, and human-factors engineering, we can get to the bottom of this.

  8. #28
    Ultimate Tone Member rammer69's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    I think they are cool & different looking

  9. #29
    Tone Member The_Junior's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    Not sure my grip strength would appreciate tuning keys with knurled knobs. Maybe if they were a finer gear ratio than 18:1.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    That's just the knobs, you can put them on just about anything you want.
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  11. #31
    Tone Member jtees4's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    I think ultimately it will come down to looks, and they look weird on a guitar....guitarists like to stick to what they have and have had for many many years. Having said that, they might be great tuners....my Steinberger (headless) had very similar tuners, except they were below the bridge and pointing in a different direction....and they were great! I also had the headstock Steinberger tuners where you turned it behind the headstock....those I hated.
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  12. #32
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    My Yamaha RGX520FZ came with Grover's with those heads. Very convenient, but I find it difficult to not overshoot the pitch when tuning up.

    I think they'd be more convenient with a very high-ratio machine head, since you can 'twirl' the button so quickly anyway.

    Larry

  13. #33
    Slutbucker Pimpologist ArtieToo's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    Just curious . . . but where did you find these? I don't see anything on Hipshot's website.

  14. #34
    A Ficus ehdwuld's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    There's a lot of consternation here

    There is no mechanical advantage to the small barrel knobs

    If the gear ratio is the same then you could just as well have swapped the knobs on your existing tuners

    They do have some cosmetic appeal

    I doubt I'll ever use them
    But if the OP likes em and wants em
    Great
    Hope they serve you well


    Here's just the knobs
    http://www.sporthitech.com/genuine-h...o-fits-grover/
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  15. #35
    tonewood instigator
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    Quote Originally Posted by ArtieToo View Post
    Just curious . . . but where did you find these? I don't see anything on Hipshot's website.
    If you go under their knob page you can pull them up as on option in a drop down bar. It's not really the best setup, as their are hardly any pictures of them, and as you said it's pretty tough to search them.

    If I didn't mention it before, the design is called "Industrial (SK1)".
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  16. #36
    Toneologist kingswebe's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chistopher View Post
    Attachment 102828

    Round grippy tuning keys.

    They cost the same as any other tuning key shape to produce, but they offer much more comfort and precision than the industry standard flat, wide, smooth shape.

    Even if you're not trying to appeal to the traditionalist, you think these things would be on every uber modern overengineered guitar on the market.

    I just bought like 3 dozen of these things to put on my guitars as soon as I realized how great they feel. Seriously, if you try them you won't go back.
    I was not aware such a thing existed.

    I see another benefit to these: the neck angle of some LP like guitars can be extreme enough that that fact combined with a traditional tuning key that happens to be pointing perpindicular to the back of the guitar when the string is in proper pitch, causes enough of an angle so that the guitar will not sit flush in a hard case unless you detune the offending tuning key(s) temporarily to "move it out of the way". Then you have to retune that string(s) next time you take the guitar out of its case for use. I have a couple Ibanez ART model guitars where this is a real thing. These non-protruding keys would resolve that issue.

  17. #37
    Slutbucker Pimpologist ArtieToo's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    Quote Originally Posted by Chistopher View Post
    If you go under their knob page you can pull them up as on option in a drop down bar. It's not really the best setup, as their are hardly any pictures of them, and as you said it's pretty tough to search them.

    If I didn't mention it before, the design is called "Industrial (SK1)".
    Thanks Chris. But that was WAY too much work. They must not want to sell them too bad.

  18. #38
    Toneologist kingswebe's Avatar
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    Quote Originally Posted by orpheo View Post
    ... i tried them but didn't care much for them. My string winder couldn't get a hold of that and that bugged me to no avail.
    Good info -thanks!

  19. #39
    Mojo's Minions
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    I have a Firebird with of this type of tuner style, but of course facing backward rather than out to the side. No more or less accurate or easy to use IME.

    The thing with tuners are they are an aesthetic as well as functional......and the lack of meat in the rotary ones and more industrial look probably tells you why they're not fitted to classic styled guitars.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    Is there such tuners for bass? I want to replace the G string tuner on my Jazz V for something very small (to looks like a 4 string).

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