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  • #16
    Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

    I'd love to try actual LSR machines. But they rarely come up for sale these days.
    Administrator of the SDUGF

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    • #17
      Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

      Originally posted by Chistopher View Post
      The shape of the head can affect tuning precision. As I mentioned earlier, with a flat knob you are more likely to overshoot the desired note.

      If you want to get into mathematic and mechanical speak, they back me up as well. Longer levers from the center of rotation require less torque to rotate a given distance, with non-circular heads this distance changes as you roll the knob through your fingers. Mathematically, when you start to turn the tuners, you have your fingers on the outside applying force perpendicular to the flat surface, giving as near as makes no difference to 100% of the force from your fingers. As you rotate the key you start to push more parallel to it, making it closer and closer to 0% efficiency. The fraction of force you put into rotation the tuning key is equivalent to sin(x), where x is the angle of force against the flat surface of the tuning key.

      With the circular knob, both these figures remain constant, where on a flat knob they change depending on hand placement, leading to more required effort to tune to the same precision.
      OMG!

      You are sooo far off and contradict yourself so badly that there is no need to even comment. But I will anyway.

      You are absolutely correct that..."Longer levers from the center of rotation require less torque to rotate a given distance". But that distance doesn't change as you rotate flat type tuners. You are constantly applying the force toward the outside of the tuner and in a circular direction. Everything else you say or imply is incorrect and only would apply if you didn't rotate your hand while rotating the tuner (applying the force in a constant direction/vector). But by rotating your hand as you rotate the knob you are keeping that same moment arm, the direction of the force/vector is constantly changing in a circular direction, the amount of force required to rotate the knob remains the same, and that force (depending on how large your flat tuners are) is considerably LESS than those tiny round knobs, which gives you considerably GREATER control.

      You'd better repeat your math and physics classes. You can quote the principles but you don't have a clue as to their practical application.

      Hey, it's ok if you like these round tuners. There is absolutely no problem with that. I'm glad you do. To each his own. And your opinion is valid. But don't try to tell us that they are more precise by virtue of them being small round cylinders. That is just untrue.
      Last edited by GuitarDoc; 01-18-2020, 10:39 AM.
      Originally Posted by IanBallard
      Rule of thumb... the more pot you have, the better your tone.

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      • #18
        Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

        Okay, sure. Why not. For people that rotate their hand through the wrist to tune, that is correct. I do not, as that puts my wrist in an awkward position.

        That does not mean what I said was wrong, just that it does not apply to your method of rotating the head. No need to be unreasonable about it.
        You will never understand How it feels to live your life With no meaning or control And with nowhere left to go You are amazed that they exist And they burn so bright
        Whilst you can only wonder why

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        • #19
          Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

          Originally posted by nexion218 View Post
          They remind me of the LSR tuners that for example Mustaine used on some is KVs. Are they locking?
          That’s the first thing that came to mind for me.
          Oh no.....


          Oh Yeah!

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          • #20
            Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

            Originally posted by Chistopher View Post
            If you're tuners work smoothly, this shouldn't be a problem for either model.
            It's not a matter of smoothness. It's a matter of the distance from the center of rotation to the edge of the tuning peg. A greater difference allows for more precise control because you actually have to move it further to get the same tuning effect. You have to move the edge of the round peg less distance than the regular (flat) tuning peg to make a change - which is bound to be less precise. Whether or not this precision matters in the real world I have no idea though.
            Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

            Originally posted by Douglas Adams
            This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

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            • #21
              Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

              We could sit here and argue the theoreticals all day, but ultimately it comes down preference. I prefer round keys, others prefer flat. I find it faster and easier to get the pitch I want with round keys, others might prefer the feel of flat ones.
              You will never understand How it feels to live your life With no meaning or control And with nowhere left to go You are amazed that they exist And they burn so bright
              Whilst you can only wonder why

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              • #22
                Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

                I bet I can be just as "precise" with either tuner for all real-world intents and purposes

                There are a lot of factors beyond leverage at play

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                • #23
                  Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

                  Even gear ratio is a matter of personal preference. Some would rather have precise finetuning, others would rather get to the note faster.

                  The tuners on my '87 PRS are pretty low ratio; they make tuning up after post-string-change stretching very quick yet I've never noticed any difficulty finding precise pitch. I have other, more modern tuners that give you very fine control, but they take more turns when changing strings. So for those I use a string winder. Not something I'm going to lose sleep over.

                  Anyway, I never noticed knob type tuners before and I think it's a pretty cool idea. Not sure I really like the look of 'em on a classic guitar design like a Les Paul or a Strat. I could love the look on a more radical guitar, as others have said.

                  Still, they'd give you a little extra room on a six-to-a-side headstock, where I sometimes feel the buttons are a bit crowded.
                  .
                  "You should know better by now than to introduce science into a discussion of voodoo."
                  .

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                  • #24
                    Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

                    Originally posted by Chistopher View Post
                    The shape of the head can affect tuning precision. As I mentioned earlier, with a flat knob you are more likely to overshoot the desired note.

                    If you want to get into mathematic and mechanical speak, they back me up as well. Longer levers from the center of rotation require less torque to rotate a given distance, with non-circular heads this distance changes as you roll the knob through your fingers. Mathematically, when you start to turn the tuners, you have your fingers on the outside applying force perpendicular to the flat surface, giving as near as makes no difference to 100% of the force from your fingers. As you rotate the key you start to push more parallel to it, making it closer and closer to 0% efficiency. The fraction of force you put into rotation the tuning key is equivalent to sin(x), where x is the angle of force against the flat surface of the tuning key.

                    With the circular knob, both these figures remain constant, where on a flat knob they change depending on hand placement, leading to more required effort to tune to the same precision.
                    I think all this is only true if you hold the tuners and rotate the guitar. As guitarists are humans and typically have to rotate their wrist to turn any tuning machine, nothing will ever be constant in hand/finger pressure.

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                    • #25
                      Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

                      Originally posted by beaubrummels View Post
                      I think all this is only true if you hold the tuners and rotate the guitar. As guitarists are humans and typically have to rotate their wrist to turn any tuning machine, nothing will ever be constant in hand/finger pressure.
                      If you have those round tuners, you don't need to move your wrist. You just roll the knobs between your pointer and thumb.
                      "If you can't fly then run, if you can't run then walk, if you can't walk then crawl, but whatever you do you have to keep moving forward."

                      MLK Jr.

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                      • #26
                        Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

                        Originally posted by BlackhawkRise View Post
                        If you have those round tuners, you don't need to move your wrist. You just roll the knobs between your pointer and thumb.
                        If you know anatomy, when you roll the knob between your fingers, those muscles thread through your wrist and anchor back at your elbows, so you will experience some form of friction and variation in tension whenever you use your fingers. I have tendinitis, so I feel it right away.

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                        • #27
                          Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

                          Sure, but it's considerably less wrist action than rotating your whole hand.

                          Funny how this forum is exactly how I left it. Maybe if we devise a team of people with degrees in anatomy, mathematics, physics, and human-factors engineering, we can get to the bottom of this.
                          "If you can't fly then run, if you can't run then walk, if you can't walk then crawl, but whatever you do you have to keep moving forward."

                          MLK Jr.

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                          • #28
                            Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

                            I think they are cool & different looking

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                            • #29
                              Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

                              Not sure my grip strength would appreciate tuning keys with knurled knobs. Maybe if they were a finer gear ratio than 18:1.

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                              • #30
                                Re: It's weird you don't see more of these...

                                That's just the knobs, you can put them on just about anything you want.
                                You will never understand How it feels to live your life With no meaning or control And with nowhere left to go You are amazed that they exist And they burn so bright
                                Whilst you can only wonder why

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