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Same guitar, all mahogany

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  • #16
    Re: Same guitar, all mahogany

    Originally posted by ICTGoober View Post
    I'm not going to start a tonewood argument with you, but I think it's obvious that all the gear works together to produce a certain sound. But some parts of the equation (like the wood), make a big difference because that's where the sound STARTS. If your guitar won't produce 650Hz, nothing - as in NOTHING - in the rest of your signal chain will add it back in. Wood counts, period. All you have to do is play guitars side by side UNPLUGGED to get the general idea. They do sound different.
    There are certainly differences between electric guitars when played unplugged. I'm concerned with how an electric sounds in an amp though. It's kinda rare to need to gig unplugged. :P

    I've run across the occasional dog of a guitar where there was clearly something off about it - sure. I've never found that to particularly correlated with types of wood though. There's good mahogany, good maple, good rosewood, good ash, good alder, good basswood, good ebony, and even good particle board (danelectro) and plywood (335s). There are also bad examples of each. The brightest guitar I own is a mahogany slab bodied guitar. Does wood matter in a guitar? No, not the type of wood really. And yes, you probably don't want **** wood . . . but I'd place body wood pretty far down there on the list of important stuff on an electric guitar.

    I've heard people get great tone out of shovels for christs sake. I don't think they were using 'tone shovels'. Or super concerned about their 650 Hz reproduction. :P
    Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

    Originally posted by Douglas Adams
    This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

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    • #17
      Re: Same guitar, all mahogany

      You are TOTALLY missing my point.
      aka Chris Pile, formerly of Six String Fever

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      • #18
        Re: Same guitar, all mahogany

        Tone shovels!

        Last edited by GuitarStv; 02-11-2020, 08:01 PM.
        Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

        Originally posted by Douglas Adams
        This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

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        • #19
          Re: Same guitar, all mahogany

          And now you PROVED my point. Way to go.
          aka Chris Pile, formerly of Six String Fever

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          • #20
            Re: Same guitar, all mahogany

            I think it's important to remember, two guitars can have close to identical specs with one weighing a fraction than the other. I don't have the greatest ear but i feel like weight alone could influence resonance and tone.

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            • #21
              Re: Same guitar, all mahogany

              Originally posted by WDeeGee View Post
              Thanks, really interesting!

              How many pieces is the mahogany back of the body?
              Afraid I no longer have it, and no pix I can find of the back. The whole guitar was essentially a butcher block as I recall, but sounded and played very well. "Tone glue!"


              Larry

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              • #22
                Re: Same guitar, all mahogany

                IMO everything makes a difference - but how much difference each part makes in any given guitar can vary wildly. And IME neck wood often makes quite a bit more difference than body wood in terms of tone. But not always.

                There are generalizations but no hard rules, and the specific outcome is down to each individual guitar.

                Everything I've learned and experienced in playing hundreds of guitars over more than fifty years has led me to believe that not only is every piece of wood different, but that the way the different pieces interact also varies from one instrument to another.

                Two guitars of the exact same base wood (or combination) can sound very different indeed.
                Yet sometimes guitars made of different woods wind up sounding virtually the same.

                In this case I'd say you might expect a warmer top end and a rounder, more voicelike midrange. That's typical of mahogany.
                Whether or not you'll actually get that, you won't know until you play the guitar through your own familiar rig.
                .
                "You should know better by now than to introduce science into a discussion of voodoo."
                .

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                • #23
                  Re: Same guitar, all mahogany

                  Originally posted by larryguitar View Post
                  Afraid I no longer have it, and no pix I can find of the back. The whole guitar was essentially a butcher block as I recall, but sounded and played very well. "Tone glue!"


                  Larry
                  I have two SZ's and they both sound amazing. Very resonant!

                  Mayeb it's the age, they are the oldest guitars I have. I guess by now the wood is fully dry and the wood resins hardened into colophony, making things more resonant. I read somewhere that when a woodworker knows what he's doing when glueing blocks together, it doesn't matter much, but can ruin the sound when it's thrown together haphazardly? Who knows?

                  Maybe all older wood sounds better?

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                  • #24
                    Re: Same guitar, all mahogany

                    ^ There is not a single test anywhere that will tell you the sum of a group of wood blanks glued together.....NOT 1!!!

                    Especially given they then get cut into shapes and part of them routed away for various hardware items.

                    The only 'tap test' with any validity is where you have an acoustic top cut to shape and you are affixing bracing. The tap will tell you at that precise location whether you have given enough support to the span - or too little or much.
                    It still doesn't tell you however whether the top will play well with the sides, back and neck though.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Same guitar, all mahogany

                      That's an unusual technique you've got. I usually pluck the strings, with either a pick or my fingers.

                      Originally posted by WDeeGee View Post
                      Well,

                      I once had the opportunity (I think they came from a failing store) to buy two Michael Harding Patriots, new and identical, at half the price.

                      Same wood, same pickups, and they sounded very differently. You can hear it when you tap them with your knuckle, the knock (natural resonance frequency) is at least two whole tones apart, they couldn't be more apart. One was very midrange heavy, the other has a really deep, dark sound. The big difference really baffled me. But then again, no two pieces of wood are the same.
                      ---------------------------
                      The most popular thread I've ever made was 1) a joke and 2) based around literally the most inane/mundane question I could think of. That says something about me, or all of you, or both.

                      https://forum.seymourduncan.com/show...or-for-a-Strat

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                      • #26
                        Re: Same guitar, all mahogany

                        I tap test when I'm trying out a guitar. Not for tone, though - never been able to get a good read on that by tapping.
                        That's not to say an experienced luthier couldn't have a better take on it when matching pieces for a build - I'm just a player.

                        And in WDeeGee's case of two identical guitars I can accept it as a legitimate indicator that there's a difference. Just not sure how I'd use that knowledge when sampling instruments out in the wild. I should test my own herd (which I already know well) and see if I find a definitive correlation. Good rainy day project.

                        Anyway, my traditional tap test is for liveness. If I tap the back of a headstock and feel the whole guitar shiver with a vibration that lingers for a moment, then usually it's a live neck and a good solid connection to the body.

                        IME guitars that felt lively when tapped behind the headstock have been the ones that came alive at reasonable volume.
                        And given today's lower stage levels, that's even more important than it used to be.
                        .
                        "You should know better by now than to introduce science into a discussion of voodoo."
                        .

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                        • #27
                          Re: Same guitar, all mahogany

                          Originally posted by eclecticsynergy View Post
                          I tap test when I'm trying out a guitar. Not for tone, though - never been able to get a good read on that by tapping.
                          That's not to say an experienced luthier couldn't have a better take on it when matching pieces for a build - I'm just a player.

                          And in WDeeGee's case of two identical guitars I can accept it as a legitimate indicator that there's a difference. Just not sure how I'd use that knowledge when sampling instruments out in the wild. I should test my own herd (which I already know well) and see if I find a definitive correlation. Good rainy day project.

                          Anyway, my traditional tap test is for liveness. If I tap the back of a headstock and feel the whole guitar shiver with a vibration that lingers for a moment, then usually it's a live neck and a good solid connection to the body.

                          IME guitars that felt lively when tapped behind the headstock have been the ones that came alive at reasonable volume.
                          And given today's lower stage levels, that's even more important than it used to be.
                          I like guitars like that too . . . they make me feel happy when they're thrumming along next to my body. They also sound/feel better when playing unplugged (which I often do while practicing). In a blind test listening to sound samples though, I can't tell the difference between a guitar that does this with the same pickups/setup/amp as a decently made guitar doesn't. Maybe it makes a difference at extremely high volumes?
                          Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

                          Originally posted by Douglas Adams
                          This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: Same guitar, all mahogany

                            Originally posted by St_Genesius View Post
                            That's an unusual technique you've got. I usually pluck the strings, with either a pick or my fingers.
                            Haha lol yeah, so do I. You hold them by the neck at the headstock, let'm hang and tap the back like you would knock on the door. A loud, clear knock means good resonance. A dull knocking sound is no good, you can hear the same thing by playing some chords acoustically. But, the knocking will tell you the guitar's resonant frequency. Between guitars this can vary a lot. I was just suprised that two "identical" guitars would have such a different resonant frequency. And this translated when playing electrically too.

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                            • #29
                              Re: Same guitar, all mahogany

                              Originally posted by GuitarStv View Post
                              I like guitars like that too . . . they make me feel happy when they're thrumming along next to my body. They also sound/feel better when playing unplugged (which I often do while practicing). In a blind test listening to sound samples though, I can't tell the difference between a guitar that does this with the same pickups/setup/amp as a decently made guitar doesn't. Maybe it makes a difference at extremely high volumes?
                              Not a tone thing for me - it's all feel.
                              However in terms of effects that could be measurable, IME a lively guitar usually gives better sustain at medium volumes than a stiff one.
                              You can feel when they're trying to take off; it happens sooner with a lively axe.

                              At extremely high volumes the most rigid guitar will come alive, even guitars with a metal neck for instance.
                              The rare exception is really dead wood. Such guitars do exist.
                              .
                              "You should know better by now than to introduce science into a discussion of voodoo."
                              .

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                              • #30
                                Re: Same guitar, all mahogany

                                I lauphed when I read this post. its an age old question. Theres a guy on YouTube swearing up and down that wood and construction makes no difference. He claims that only pickups will change tone. When I asked him.......what amp are you playing through? he comes back with..... A Johnson with built in processor. So he processes the hell out of his tone and only the strongest pickup variations are gunna be noticable at that point.
                                Wood makes a noiticable difference as well as neck wood and thickness of neck wood. Yup, its true. we did two identicale strats one alder one ash. the alder had a more pronounced midrange, the ash had a more pronounced top and bottom but softer midrange. how big was the difference? only about 10%. on a clean fender amp you could hear it. if it was heavily processed probably not. with heavy distortion not too much except we found the ash had a more pronounced gain on the high end notes like a little extra precense on every note so as to sound a little sharper. again with heavy chorus and reverb too? maybe or probably not that noticable. many performers eq their signal to sound basically the same no matter what guitar they pick up so it all stays consistant.
                                the answer to this question is simple.....the more simple the tone, the more a simple differance like wood will matter. a mahagany les paul with a maple cap will definently sound different through a el 34 Marshall full stack then a alder strat with a bolt on neck and floyd rose no matter if both guitars have a JB in the bridge. if you over process and sterilize the tone to death (80s new wave....flock of seaguls or New Order) then no, you could almost sound identical on a Dan Electro.
                                Last edited by philthis; 02-25-2020, 11:21 AM.

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