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HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus

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  • HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus

    Guys could you please sanity check this diagram for an HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus?


    1. Position 1: Bridge P-Rail (rail facing bridge) through Triple Shots
    2. Position 2: Bridge P-Rail (rail facing bridge) through Triple Shots + Classic Stack Plus (split to hum-cancel with neck P-rails P-90)
    3. Position 3: Classic Stack Plus
    4. Position 4: Neck P-Rails (rail facing neck) through Triple Shots + Classic Stack Plus (split to hum-cancel with bridge P-rails rail)
    5. Position 5: Neck P-Rails (rail facing neck) through Triple Shots

    6. Volume push-pull pot phase-switches neck P-rail
    7. Tone push-pull pot forces neck P-rail on (for neck/bridge or all pickups on combinations)

    8. Bridge P-rail is wired to Triple Shots with 'reverse wiring' so that slug/adjustable selection is pointing towards corresponding side
    EDIT: This is incorrect:9. Bridge triple-shot black/white wires going to pickup switch are reversed to ensure hum-canceling with neck p-rails (rails with rails, P90s with P90s)


    This is a first project I am currently working on, based of a nice ash body Ibby RG. Any comments or ideas are most welcome!

    UPDATED DIAGRAM:
    Click image for larger version

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    Thanks
    Zac
    Attached Files
    Last edited by ZacLaus; 02-25-2020, 01:48 PM.

  • #2
    Re: HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus

    The middle Classic Stack Plus rwrv pickup has arrived and... its south polarity
    I thought sc's were north polarity when rwrp? I guess I should return it and get a normal version?

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus

      You could always flip magnet polarities and reverse the leads on both the P-Rails to make them match your middle, but it's easier to swap the middle pickup if you don't plan to do any magnet swaps on the P-Rails (which are trickier to do a magnet swap on than standard pickups thanks to the multiple magnets and unusual coils).

      Frank Falbo [P-Rails designer] said "Our standard single coils will cancel with the Neck P90 and the Bridge Rail. Our RW/RP single coils will cancel with the Neck Rail and the Bridge P-90." I'd have expected the STK-S4m to match the SSL-2 RWRP for that (and for SSLs to be the standard, given they are their most common single last I heard).

      Have you checked the polarity on your P-Rails (and that you haven't swapped bridge & neck) to be sure of them as well?

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus

        A quick google has multiple sources showing south for the neck Rail and the bridge P-90.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus

          Originally posted by ZacLaus View Post
          Guys could you please sanity check this diagram for an HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus?


          1. Position 1: Bridge P-Rail (rail facing bridge) through Triple Shots
          2. Position 2: Bridge P-Rail (rail facing bridge) through Triple Shots + Classic Stack Plus (split to hum-cancel with P-rails P-90)
          3. Position 3: Classic Stack Plus
          4. Position 4: Neck P-Rails (rail facing neck) through Triple Shots + Classic Stack Plus (split to hum-cancel with P-rails rail)
          5. Position 5: Neck P-Rails (rail facing neck) through Triple Shots

          6. Volume push-pull pot phase-switches neck P-rail
          7. Tone push-pull pot forces neck P-rail on (for neck/bridge or all pickups on combinations)

          8. Bridge P-rail is wired to Triple Shots with 'reverse wiring' so that slug/adjustable selection is pointing towards corresponding side
          9. Bridge triple-shot black/white wires going to pickup switch are reversed to ensure hum-canceling with neck p-rails (rails with rails, P90s with P90s)


          This is a first project I am currently working on, based of a nice ash body Ibby RG. Any comments or ideas are most welcome!

          [ATTACH=CONFIG]103379[/ATTACH]

          Thanks
          Zac
          Did you do the reverse wiring mentioned in Point 9 in order to undo the effects of the wiring reversal in Point 8? That would be the only reason i can think of to do the reversal in Point 9, because the Neck P-Rail pickup is designed as a RWRP pickup already. Designer Frank Falbo did that with the Neck Prail because he anticipated a popular combo btw the two Prail pickups would be "both P90s" and "both Rails" so he wanted to make those hum canceling for the Prail users.
          Last edited by Jack_TriPpEr; 02-22-2020, 04:22 AM.
          Sanford: "The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware."

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus

            Originally posted by Despair View Post
            You could always flip magnet polarities and reverse the leads on both the P-Rails to make them match your middle, but it's easier to swap the middle pickup if you don't plan to do any magnet swaps on the P-Rails (which are trickier to do a magnet swap on than standard pickups thanks to the multiple magnets and unusual coils).

            Frank Falbo [P-Rails designer] said "Our standard single coils will cancel with the Neck P90 and the Bridge Rail. Our RW/RP single coils will cancel with the Neck Rail and the Bridge P-90." I'd have expected the STK-S4m to match the SSL-2 RWRP for that (and for SSLs to be the standard, given they are their most common single last I heard).

            Have you checked the polarity on your P-Rails (and that you haven't swapped bridge & neck) to be sure of them as well?
            Thanks, this is correct info. I wish SD would just put it on the product page.
            I am going to wait for the STK-S4N neck to arrive in place of the S4M.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus

              Originally posted by kingswebe View Post
              Did you do the reverse wiring mentioned in Point 9 in order to undo the effects of the wiring reversal in Point 8? That would be the only reason i can think of to do the reversal in Point 9, because the Neck P-Rail pickup is designed as a RWRP pickup already. Designer Frank Falbo did that with the Neck Prail because he anticipated a popular combo btw the two Prail pickups would be "both P90s" and "both Rails" so he wanted to make those hum canceling for the Prail users.
              Good question. I have just made an experiment: as per point 8, I connected bridge prail to triple shots using reverse wiring (red wire to B, green wire to W). Both TS switches are pointing towards the bridge, measured resistance is 8.4K ohms indicating that indeed rail is selected. Multimeter is connected red to white and black to black, touching pliers on the rail has multimeter voltage jump up, removing pliers voltage jumps to negative.
              My conclusion is that reverse wiring pickup to TS only changes the direction of TS switches, but electrical phase is unchanged (TS white wire is still the hot one). This is why in point 9 I reverse TS, white going to ground and black is hot, so that bridge rail would hum cancel with neck rail, and same for P90s.

              (for completeness I also tested neck using standard wiring to TS - same story, white wire from TS is hot)

              Please tell me if this logic is wrong. Thanks!

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus

                Originally posted by ZacLaus View Post
                Good question. I have just made an experiment: as per point 8, I connected bridge prail to triple shots using reverse wiring (red wire to B, green wire to W). Both TS switches are pointing towards the bridge, measured resistance is 8.4K ohms indicating that indeed rail is selected. Multimeter is connected red to white and black to black, touching pliers on the rail has multimeter voltage jump up, removing pliers voltage jumps to negative.
                My conclusion is that reverse wiring pickup to TS only changes the direction of TS switches, but electrical phase is unchanged (TS white wire is still the hot one). This is why in point 9 I reverse TS, white going to ground and black is hot, so that bridge rail would hum cancel with neck rail, and same for P90s.

                (for completeness I also tested neck using standard wiring to TS - same story, white wire from TS is hot)

                Please tell me if this logic is wrong. Thanks!
                Weird, i would expect White lug on the TS to test as Negative charge, not positive. Did you perform this test with Point 9 wiring already in place, which might explain this? I would have expected White to be negative, which would mean the Red meter lead (positively charged) would have been the incorrect lead to have attached to it (and same "incorrectness" for the Black lug that the Black meter lead was attached to) with an expected end result of the direction of the meter jump to be in the negative direction.

                Click image for larger version

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                A fundamental understanding i have about the Prail bridge pickup is that the electrical charges of each of the four wires would be the same as any other Duncan humbucker.

                Meaning, Black wire would normally first receive the Hot input, so Black wire would be positive electric charge. Then flowing in sequence from there:

                Black (+) - receiving Hot input
                White (-) the other wire of the coil Black is connected to

                Red (+) - the 2nd coil, with White flowing into it
                Green (-) - other wire of 2nd coil, routed to Ground - making Green a negative electric charge

                The above is depicted in the following screenshot from the PRails Wiring Bible blog article here on the Seymour Duncan website. Pic and link follow.

                The three most-used modes for the P-Rails pickup are series humbucker, P-90 mode and rail mode. If these are the only three modes we want to use, the wiring is quite simple.


                Click image for larger version

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                Reversing where the pickup wires connect to the TS in Point 8 just changes which coil is first to receive the Hot input, but not the electrical charges, as shown here:

                Red (+) - receiving Hot input
                Green (-) the other wire of the coil Red is connected to

                Black (+) - the 2nd coil, with Green flowing into it
                White (-) - other wire of 2nd coil, routed to Ground - making White a negative electric charge

                So from the above, Green and White should both remain negative charged, and Black and Red as positively charged, regardless of whether the pickup wires are wired Normal or Alternative methhod to the TS. This also seems to be substantiated by the labeling on the back of the TS packaging *not* saying that the other Reverse Phase method for the TS needs to take into account whether the Normal or Alternative method was used.

                Click image for larger version

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                So i am not seeing how or why White on the TS is testing as Positively charged .... unless Point 9 is possibly already wired in place and having an effect of reversing electrical phase (?)

                Following is a chart depicting further details of my understanding about the two Prail pickups.

                Click image for larger version

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                Sanford: "The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware."

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus

                  Originally posted by kingswebe View Post
                  Weird, i would expect White lug on the TS to test as Negative charge, not positive. Did you perform this test with Point 9 wiring already in place, which might explain this? I would have expected White to be negative, which would mean the Red meter lead (positively charged) would have been the incorrect lead to have attached to it (and same "incorrectness" for the Black lug that the Black meter lead was attached to) with an expected end result of the direction of the meter jump to be in the negative direction.

                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]103437[/ATTACH]

                  A fundamental understanding i have about the Prail bridge pickup is that the electrical charges of each of the four wires would be the same as any other Duncan humbucker.

                  Meaning, Black wire would normally first receive the Hot input, so Black wire would be positive electric charge. Then flowing in sequence from there:

                  Black (+) - receiving Hot input
                  White (-) the other wire of the coil Black is connected to

                  Red (+) - the 2nd coil, with White flowing into it
                  Green (-) - other wire of 2nd coil, routed to Ground - making Green a negative electric charge

                  The above is depicted in the following screenshot from the PRails Wiring Bible blog article here on the Seymour Duncan website. Pic and link follow.

                  The three most-used modes for the P-Rails pickup are series humbucker, P-90 mode and rail mode. If these are the only three modes we want to use, the wiring is quite simple.


                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]103438[/ATTACH]

                  Reversing where the pickup wires connect to the TS in Point 8 just changes which coil is first to receive the Hot input, but not the electrical charges, as shown here:

                  Red (+) - receiving Hot input
                  Green (-) the other wire of the coil Red is connected to

                  Black (+) - the 2nd coil, with Green flowing into it
                  White (-) - other wire of 2nd coil, routed to Ground - making White a negative electric charge

                  So from the above, Green and White should both remain negative charged, and Black and Red as positively charged, regardless of whether the pickup wires are wired Normal or Alternative methhod to the TS. This also seems to be substantiated by the labeling on the back of the TS packaging *not* saying that the other Reverse Phase method for the TS needs to take into account whether the Normal or Alternative method was used.

                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]103439[/ATTACH]

                  So i am not seeing how or why White on the TS is testing as Positively charged .... unless Point 9 is possibly already wired in place and having an effect of reversing electrical phase (?)

                  Following is a chart depicting further details of my understanding about the two Prail pickups.

                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]103440[/ATTACH]
                  Oops, the ref chart i posted in my last reply had the incorrect magnetic polarities for each pickup. So did my sketch in that post. But neither should have an impact on why the White lug of the TS tested positive instead of negative.

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Following is a screenshot of a post from Prail designer Frank Falbo that speaks to the humcanceling properties of each Prail pickup, which is what i gleaned the magnetic polarities from.

                  Click image for larger version

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                  Last edited by Jack_TriPpEr; 02-23-2020, 02:43 PM.
                  Sanford: "The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware."

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus

                    Originally posted by kingswebe View Post
                    Did you do the reverse wiring mentioned in Point 9 in order to undo the effects of the wiring reversal in Point 8? That would be the only reason i can think of to do the reversal in Point 9, because the Neck P-Rail pickup is designed as a RWRP pickup already. Designer Frank Falbo did that with the Neck Prail because he anticipated a popular combo btw the two Prail pickups would be "both P90s" and "both Rails" so he wanted to make those hum canceling for the Prail users.
                    Originally posted by ZacLaus View Post
                    Good question. I have just made an experiment: as per point 8, I connected bridge prail to triple shots using reverse wiring (red wire to B, green wire to W). Both TS switches are pointing towards the bridge, measured resistance is 8.4K ohms indicating that indeed rail is selected. Multimeter is connected red to white and black to black, touching pliers on the rail has multimeter voltage jump up, removing pliers voltage jumps to negative.
                    My conclusion is that reverse wiring pickup to TS only changes the direction of TS switches, but electrical phase is unchanged (TS white wire is still the hot one). This is why in point 9 I reverse TS, white going to ground and black is hot, so that bridge rail would hum cancel with neck rail, and same for P90s.

                    (for completeness I also tested neck using standard wiring to TS - same story, white wire from TS is hot)

                    Please tell me if this logic is wrong. Thanks!
                    S4n has arrived, I've put everything together and it sounds absolutely awesome. I am yet to figure out the flaw in my logic but clearly kingawebe you were right, my original design put neck and bridge out of phase in default position (luckily I had the volume push pull to confirm it). I am going to follow up with updated diagram. I also got new CTS pots, new knobs arrive next week then I'll also put some pictures out.

                    EDIT: Original post and diagram are now updated
                    Last edited by ZacLaus; 02-25-2020, 01:50 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus

                      Originally posted by ZacLaus View Post
                      S4n has arrived, I've put everything together and it sounds absolutely awesome. I am yet to figure out the flaw in my logic but clearly kingawebe you were right, my original design put neck and bridge out of phase in default position (luckily I had the volume push pull to confirm it). I am going to follow up with updated diagram. I also got new CTS pots, new knobs arrive next week then I'll also put some pictures out.
                      Glad to hear that the adjustment was easy to identify and fix, and that all is working fine. Congrats on your first project turning out well and going relatively smoothly for a diagram like that that has a lot going on.
                      Sanford: "The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware."

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus

                        Final product:

                        Click image for larger version

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                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus

                          Swapping bridge rail magnet with an A8:
                          Click image for larger version

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                          Pots wiring:
                          Click image for larger version

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                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: HSH P-rails with Triple shots & Classic Stack Plus

                            Originally posted by ZacLaus View Post
                            Final product:

                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]103655[/ATTACH]
                            Very nice! I notice that you decided to change the orientation of the Bridge pickup vs your earlier diagram - that's probably helping that Bridge P90 have more bite. Good job.
                            Sanford: "The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware."

                            Comment

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