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Let's talk distortion

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  • Let's talk distortion

    I read talk about preamp distortion, power amp distortion, and speaker breakup. How do I tell what I'm hearing in recorded music? I think I know, but I also think it's hard to find examples of just one of the three. I don't particularly think explanations like "modern metal is all preamp distortion" or "AC/DC is what power amp distortion sounds like" are particularly helpful. Can you go deeper?

  • #2
    Re: Let's talk distortion

    It's hard to describe
    Best thing to do is play
    And most importantly crank to various volumes
    Different amps

    It helps I've been through a few tube amps and have had the pleasure of letting them rip with or without attenuators which helps give you the feel for how much the speaker colors as you turn up

    Speaker breakup depends on the kind of speaker
    Celestions sound different from old American types

    Different power amps with different power tubes have pretty different breakup sounds

    Some preamps are pretty good at getting a power-ampy tone without cranking things

    It's really hard to say "that's what you're hearing" cuz there's a million variables and many of them lead to similar results

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    • #3
      Re: Let's talk distortion

      Generally though I'd say preamp is buzzier, thinner gain. Brighter as you add more of it
      Power amp is smoother until you really crank it and the grind is more strong, thick sounding. El84s add brightness as you turn up, 6l6s are creamy and vocal, el34s sound mid-rangey and aggressive, 6v6 more balanced but somewhat wooly bass breaking up, pretty middler of the road

      Old American speakers sound like a kazoo to me
      Most new American speakers I don't get much breakup from that I can hear
      Celestions have an additional layer of like a fuzz almost, and push things toward the mids

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      • #4
        Re: Let's talk distortion

        Search for Johan Segeborn’s youtube channel. He plays a lot of old amps through old speakers at very loud volumes.
        Oh no.....


        Oh Yeah!

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        • #5
          Re: Let's talk distortion

          As for hearing the various types in recorded music, there isn't any definitive way to say what's what. All you can do is try to learn approximately how each sounds and then decide for yourself, "This sounds kind of like that." Of course it's complicated by the fact that many players use pedals also. Many modern pedals are even designed for amplike behavior, mimicing the response of power amps and sometimes speakers.

          Preamp distortion is easiest to experiment with because it's what you can get with the master volume turned low.

          In tube amps it's not easy to separate the effects of power amp distortion from speaker breakup, especially since both normally occur in conjunction with the extra sustain that comes from playing loud. You can't tell how much of the sustain is power tube compression and how much is sheer volume. You can take speaker breakup out of the equation using an attenuator, but pushing the power stage hard also involves running the preamp hot so likely there will be some preamp tone involved and you won't really be hearing pure power tube distortion.

          Today's high-powered solid state rigs may make it possible to audition speaker breakup more or less on its own though. In the old days, the only way was to use a big bass head through your guitar cabinet. We didn't do much of that because it was prone to blowing speakers. Some did this in search of atypical tones: I have it on good authority that the guitar solos for Reelin' In The Years were recorded using an Ampeg SVT running very loud. But even there, you can't say that all the distortion was from the eight 10" speakers - some will have been from the preamp and power tubes as well. Like any tube amp, even an SVT will start breaking up above 4 or 5.
          .
          "You should know better by now than to introduce science into a discussion of voodoo."
          .

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          • #6
            Re: Let's talk distortion

            I can't tell in a well-recorded song. But if I was using an amp, I could certainly feel it. Power amp distortion is the touch-sensitive one, and the one that isn't as buzzy and compressed. It usually isn't enough gain for modern metal. It is also the thing we guitarists have been trying to achieve at a quiet volume for years.
            Administrator of the SDUGF

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            • #7
              Re: Let's talk distortion

              I am not a tube amp connoisseur but for what I have played a couple of times tube amps with real tube based power amp sections, it is more about the dynamics rather than the actual distortion tone. I think Mincer described it very well. But then even if it is just a 10% of the tone there are people that just need it, lucky me preamp distortion is enough for me so far.

              Edit: About the speaker distortion it is really hard to tell for me but having a tube preamp into a SS power amp with lots of clean headroom I can say the same amount of preamp distortion sounds just ok in bedroom levels but then when I turn the volume up in rehearsal or a live gig it sounds a bit thicker, it may be the low end kicking but to me it sounds like turning distortion to 11.
              Last edited by IMENATOR; 02-24-2020, 01:21 PM.
              Who took my guitar?

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              • #8
                Re: Let's talk distortion

                Run nothing but real tube amps owned about any thing you can name at some point and only very rarely run a drive pedal of any type so will chime in.
                First off there are many variables and not all high gain tube amps run just tube gain some have clip diodes so essentially have a built in overdrive pedal.
                Case in point on this would be the Marshall JCM 900 Dual Master volume amps of the early 90's. Had 2 gain controls Gain one was tube gain 2 the SS side so you could run one or the other or mix both. My 1991 Carvin X50B Hot Rod Mod head does the same thing. Has a gain control for the crunch side and a pull hot Rod Mod that engages the diodes for a set gain boost.
                Pre amp crunch alone normally is thinner harder in feel and harsher than power tube distortion but not always it depends on the amp design.
                Power amp distortion is looser and warmer and can be pretty sloppy on some amps.
                Speaker breakup will depend on the speaker itself. Different speakers respond differently depending on design ad wattage.
                This is an example of a miced up amp with really good pre amp crunch running at super low stage volume. My early 90's Mesa Boogie Subway Rocket at super low stage volume only effect is the verb in the loop as this one is a non reverb.
                Last edited by Ascension; 02-24-2020, 02:49 PM.
                Guitars
                Kiesel DC 135, Carvin AE 185, DC 400, DC 127 KOA, DC 127 Quilt Purple, X220C, PRS Custom 24, Washburn USA MG 122 proto , MG 102, MG 120.
                Amps PRS Archon 50 head, MT 15, Mesa Subway Rocket, DC-5, Carvin X50B Hot Rod Mod head, Zinky 25watt Blue Velvet combo.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Let's talk distortion

                  Here is it's big brother my 50 watt 6L6 powered Mesa Boogie .50 caliber Plus from the same era unmiced out doors and running hard enough to get into some speaker and power distortion.
                  Last edited by Ascension; 02-24-2020, 02:54 PM.
                  Guitars
                  Kiesel DC 135, Carvin AE 185, DC 400, DC 127 KOA, DC 127 Quilt Purple, X220C, PRS Custom 24, Washburn USA MG 122 proto , MG 102, MG 120.
                  Amps PRS Archon 50 head, MT 15, Mesa Subway Rocket, DC-5, Carvin X50B Hot Rod Mod head, Zinky 25watt Blue Velvet combo.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Let's talk distortion

                    Here is my little EL 84 powered 1/12 25 watt Zinky Blue Velvet combo running no effects un miced not dimed but pushing pretty hard and getting into both Pre and Power tube plus some speaker break up here.
                    Last edited by Ascension; 02-24-2020, 02:44 PM.
                    Guitars
                    Kiesel DC 135, Carvin AE 185, DC 400, DC 127 KOA, DC 127 Quilt Purple, X220C, PRS Custom 24, Washburn USA MG 122 proto , MG 102, MG 120.
                    Amps PRS Archon 50 head, MT 15, Mesa Subway Rocket, DC-5, Carvin X50B Hot Rod Mod head, Zinky 25watt Blue Velvet combo.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Let's talk distortion

                      Here is another tottaly different set up. This is my 6L6 powered PRS MT 15 head running only a verb in the loop and have a cab miced up in the back in an iso booth so am cranking a little to get into both power tube and speaker break up.
                      Last edited by Ascension; 02-24-2020, 02:45 PM.
                      Guitars
                      Kiesel DC 135, Carvin AE 185, DC 400, DC 127 KOA, DC 127 Quilt Purple, X220C, PRS Custom 24, Washburn USA MG 122 proto , MG 102, MG 120.
                      Amps PRS Archon 50 head, MT 15, Mesa Subway Rocket, DC-5, Carvin X50B Hot Rod Mod head, Zinky 25watt Blue Velvet combo.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Let's talk distortion

                        pi distortion is a big thing too and doesnt get talked about as much. i dont know if anyone has heard a guitar amp with pure power tube distortion. youd have to have a perfectly clean preamp with a ton of signal and a pi that could take it without folding and pass that huge signal to the big bottles and a speaker with a ton of power handling. the best "classic" distorted tones are usually a combination of a little preamp distortion, some pi distortion, a bit of power tube breakup and a speaker being pushed hard.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Let's talk distortion

                          I was going to bring up PI distortion, because I think that was the source of most of the distortion in my Jet City JCA20H. Swapping that tube out for a 12AU7 did wonders for headroom and feel.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Let's talk distortion

                            Originally posted by misterwhizzy View Post
                            I was going to bring up PI distortion, because I think that was the source of most of the distortion in my Jet City JCA20H. Swapping that tube out for a 12AU7 did wonders for headroom and feel.
                            Agreed on the PI having impact on many amps. Many say it is not a position that really affects tone but have seen otherwise. Does depend on the amp design how much but in many amps it can be substantial.
                            Last edited by Ascension; 02-24-2020, 08:13 PM.
                            Guitars
                            Kiesel DC 135, Carvin AE 185, DC 400, DC 127 KOA, DC 127 Quilt Purple, X220C, PRS Custom 24, Washburn USA MG 122 proto , MG 102, MG 120.
                            Amps PRS Archon 50 head, MT 15, Mesa Subway Rocket, DC-5, Carvin X50B Hot Rod Mod head, Zinky 25watt Blue Velvet combo.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Let's talk distortion

                              Phase inverter tube needs to work it to get the sweet spot... that's where all the juicy mojo resides.

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