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Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

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  • Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

    I remember reading about this at some point long ago - and some say you should have paper in oil ones and similar.

    I just swapped pickups on LP Std and started wondering if those ceramic capacitors there really cut it.
    I suppose any plastic one will be better for audio, or?

    What is your experience?

    Pickups are DiMarzio DP103 and DP100 and was perfect upgrade from Burstbucker Pro's.

    Thanks.

  • #2
    Re: Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

    If it sounds good to you, leave it the hell alone. Stop following the lemmings.
    aka Chris Pile, formerly of Six String Fever

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    • #3
      Re: Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

      If the tone (note detail even when darkened) sounds a bit murky/indistinct when the tone control is rolled off, I would consider replacement. You have to measure them. If they are not in spec or do not read consistently I would replace them with more stable ones like Spragues. Specific material doesn’t matter so much, only the measured value of the component. One exception is paper in oil will dry out, fall out of spec and fail over a long time. The other exception is cheap ceramic discs. When I’ve tested them, they do not read a consistent value and note definition is a bit murkier when the tone is rolled off. There are better materials that last much longer available.

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      • #4
        Re: Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

        Thanks for response.
        It's hard to say how it should sound with turning down tone, since that by definition make it murkier.

        So thought about what I was reading, a pot that do no contact at all at 10 - so disconnected circuit, kind of.
        And gain a little highs doing that. The circuit is at some point filtering highs.

        DiMarzio sell some 1 Mohm pots also to gain some highs, they claim.

        So figured if to test with disconnect or other capacitor type - if that would change with tone at 10 as well.

        From what I found on the matter - they tested with static continuous signal, frequency sweep and if the filter changes due to type of capactor.
        But playing is not a continuous static - and that's how it is with many things - how they respond dynamically and to static conditions.

        Microphones and speakers are examples that react very differently to dynamic content and static.
        There are cheap stuff piezo mikes that specs say 20-20 000 Hz - but they don't sound like a Neumann anyway.

        Electronics that forward analog signal depend on quality of components.

        So the thinking that a capacitor in tone circuit might interfere in some regard to guitar signal, playing single notes and chords and everything in between - just being there seems not so far fetched to me.

        Curious what tests by ear made by folks here on this tone circuit often used?

        Some really subtle changes can not be decided until real experience.

        Most extensive test I found was this


        but all static conditions with filter curve.

        Most profound change over time I experienced was using GeorgeL instrument cable - that was like swapping between a 59' to Jazz or something, that I used at the time.

        So a passive pickup, internal resistance and total impedance with coil and the volume pot, tone circuit, cable etc. It's all part of the ciruit.
        Last edited by Larioso; 03-31-2020, 03:16 AM.

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        • #5
          Re: Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

          It's up to you. I notice a difference between cap materials. My favorite are orange drop cuz it sounds fat and supple, and paper in oil cuz it sounds creamy and organic. They're cheap so no big deal to not try it.
          The things that you wanted
          I bought them for you

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          • #6
            Re: Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

            @larioso what I mean by “murkier” is that normally even with the tone darkened, you should still be able to hear note to note definition if you play a chord, but with a cheap inconsistent ceramic cap some of the notes of chords will blend in a way you can’t distinguish individual strings/notes of the chord. That’s the best way I can describe it.

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            • #7
              Re: Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

              There exists no measurable difference between capacitors of the same value used in a guitar tone circuit. Ceramic, paper in oil, whatever . . . they all therefore sound exactly the same. Different values of capacitor can make a big difference though, and because of variances in manufacturing spec grabbing two '.033' caps can usually have values between .027 and .039 . . . which is definitely enough to hear.

              That said, the placebo effect is very real. There's no sound difference between playing a neon pink strat and a tobacco burst one . . . but many players will be a lot happier playing one rather than the other. If it makes you happy to change out the cap, knock yourself out.
              Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

              Originally posted by Douglas Adams
              This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

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              • #8
                Re: Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

                Originally posted by beaubrummels View Post
                @larioso what I mean by “murkier” is that normally even with the tone darkened, you should still be able to hear note to note definition if you play a chord, but with a cheap inconsistent ceramic cap some of the notes of chords will blend in a way you can’t distinguish individual strings/notes of the chord. That’s the best way I can describe it.
                Ok, thanks. I always feel I loose the tone already at 8 on tonepot, but will check it out more. Some guitars have logarithmic pot and get the feeling some linear, not sure.

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                • #9
                  Re: Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

                  I generally have a bunch of different capacitors of differing values laying around, so if I open up my guitar to do work on it and see that there is a ceramic capacitor, usually I will change it out just because I'm already in there and I usually prefer to put a .018uF cap instead of .022uF. But if I know that there's a ceramic cap in there and I have no plans of changing anything else in the control cavity, I usually just let it be.
                  You will never understand How it feels to live your life With no meaning or control And with nowhere left to go You are amazed that they exist And they burn so bright
                  Whilst you can only wonder why

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                  • #10
                    Re: Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

                    Originally posted by GuitarStv View Post
                    There exists no measurable difference between capacitors of the same value used in a guitar tone circuit. Ceramic, paper in oil, whatever . . . they all therefore sound exactly the same. Different values of capacitor can make a big difference though, and because of variances in manufacturing spec grabbing two '.033' caps can usually have values between .027 and .039 . . . which is definitely enough to hear.

                    That said, the placebo effect is very real. There's no sound difference between playing a neon pink strat and a tobacco burst one . . . but many players will be a lot happier playing one rather than the other. If it makes you happy to change out the cap, knock yourself out.
                    I believe there is no measurable difference - but between various hifi amps there are no measurable differences either - and still some just sound better. What we can tell on instruments are much less than our fine ears+brain interpretation.

                    So I'm not a stranger to the idea it matters. Caps matter in analog gear otherwise, so why not in guitars.

                    I have to test, I guess, but thanks for all input.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

                      I am one of those people who use the tone control a lot, and if the value of the cap is the same, I can't hear a difference. I am not saying there isn't, but I can't hear it, so worry about other things that I can hear.
                      Administrator of the SDUGF

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                      • #12
                        Re: Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

                        i use my tone knob more than most people id guess. i use whatever type i have the value i want, usually orange drop but ceramic or pio or mallory 150 or whatever i have handy. does it make a difference? maybe a small one, but on stage, with a band, you will hear absolutely no difference.

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                        • #13
                          Re: Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

                          Ceramic disc caps are fine, and cost nothing. Worry about the actual capacitance of each cap, not whether it costs 5 cents or 50 dollars. The cap is metaphorically nothing but a sink strainer over the garbage disposal. Arguing that cap type matters is like saying that your sink strainer being aluminum or stainless, both with the same exact measurements on the mesh, affects the flow of stuff past the mesh. You might like stainless because it theoretically lasts longer and costs more so it must be better...but the particles don't know the difference. All they see is a certain number of holes of a certain size, that they can either pass through or not.

                          If your tone control is rolling off treble too quickly for you, you need to switch to a linear taper pot, not a different cap.

                          If the high frequencies that are getting rolled off are too excessive, then you want a lower cap value. If not enough high frequencies are getting rolled off, then you want a higher valued cap.

                          Linear tone controls with smaller valued caps (usually 1/2 to 1/4 of the stock value) are my go-to tone controls when I wire a guitar. I like a subtle tone control that "comes on" well down the range of the knob's movement, and takes out only the highest frequencies.

                          Worry about the frequency of rolloff (measured cap value), and about the sensitivity of the control (pot taper), not about your cap material.

                          Personally, I like any cap that has thicker leads with plenty of length, as they are much easier for me to solder and manipulate in a guitar wiring harness. That said, I don't pull stock cheap ceramic disc caps unless they need a change in value...because they are already soldered, and there is no need to create work for myself when it will have zero effect.
                          Last edited by ItsaBass; 04-02-2020, 03:14 AM.
                          Originally posted by LesStrat
                          Yogi Berra was correct.
                          Originally posted by JOLLY
                          I do a few chord things, some crappy lead stuff, and then some rhythm stuff.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

                            I've said my 2 cents on these subject many times over. It hasn't changed.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Tonepot ceramic capacitor - should I change it?

                              Originally posted by Larioso View Post
                              I believe there is no measurable difference - but between various hifi amps there are no measurable differences either - and still some just sound better. What we can tell on instruments are much less than our fine ears+brain interpretation.

                              So I'm not a stranger to the idea it matters. Caps matter in analog gear otherwise, so why not in guitars.
                              Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but there are massive, considerable, and measurable differences between various hifi amps. Caps matter in amps because as certain constructions of caps get older, their internal resistance increases. This happens at different rates depending on the construction of the cap and the location within the circuit, it occurs at a practically nonexistent rate in guitars, so the cap will sound the same from the day you buy it to the day you shuffle off this mortal coil. Ceramic capacitors are also avoided in amps for the microphonic properties.

                              Here's a neat article about the topic:

                              You will never understand How it feels to live your life With no meaning or control And with nowhere left to go You are amazed that they exist And they burn so bright
                              Whilst you can only wonder why

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