Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

For completeness sake, here's an updated diagram that should be numbered as you asked, and has everything corrected to reflect the current connections - with actual connections highlighted a little better:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]104863[/ATTACH]

Rex,

Thanks.

See the last paragraph in my reply @ #72, and all of my reply @ #73. Working on a diagram for you now, should have it posted for you in about an hour or so.

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Sorry to hear about the flooding. What a pain in the a** that is.

So based on what you just reported about the Neck pickup, I believe we have a major development. It seems that the magnet in the Neck pickup came from the factory with the magnet flipped in the wrong direction. Because with the pickup sitting in "normal positon" (i.e. not rotated where its printed logo would be upside down), the coil facing the neck of the guitar on the Neck humbucker should have South polarity, not North. *But* since you report that there is hum in Positions 2 and 4 when the mini-switch is set so that Neck pickup is in Series mode, we can also deduce that the wind direction on the two coils is normal, so the Neck pickup was NOT set up as a Reverse Wind/ Reverse Polarity (RWRP) pickup at the factory. The Neck pickup simply has the magnet flipped in the wrong direction, without the additional step of reverse winding each coil which would make it RWRP.

To verify this further, please swap the places between where Neck pickup South Start wire (green) and Neck pickup North Start wire (black) are currently connected at the mini-switch. As a result black wire will now get routed to ground and green wire will now get routed to the superswitch. Then please listen to the results plugged into an amplifier and confirm that positions 2 and 4 are now hum-free with the mini-switch set to Series mode, and that there is no new problems in the other 3 superswitch positions.

!! [Edit: more wiring changes need to occur than just swapping Neck black and green wires. I will draw up a diagram for you a little later. The Switch side connections will be impacted.]

Thanks

Here's that diagram. The wiring is now similar to what some others suggested earlier on the basis of flipping the neck pickup, except in this case, it seems to have come from the manufacturer already flipped.

Following is a summary of changes:
[edit]: 1. Mini-switch: connection to ground swaps places with connection to the superswitch
2. Superswitch: Switch side lug 2 now goes to Ground instead of to Volume Pot Left Lug.
3. Superswitch: Switch side lug 4 now goes to Volume Pot Left Lug instead of Ground.

[RexRemus]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Thanks Jack. I have a few things arriving early next week, so it might not be till next weekend that I can tear it all apart, but I'll update here when I can. Also was wondering if you could DM me I wanted to run something past you. I truly appreciate your help and patience through all this. I'd have been pretty lost otherwise.

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Thanks Jack. I have a few things arriving early next week, so it might not be till next weekend that I can tear it all apart, but I'll update here when I can. Also was wondering if you could DM me I wanted to run something past you. I truly appreciate your help and patience through all this. I'd have been pretty lost otherwise.

Ok

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Thanks Jack. I have a few things arriving early next week, so it might not be till next weekend that I can tear it all apart, but I'll update here when I can. Also was wondering if you could DM me I wanted to run something past you. I truly appreciate your help and patience through all this. I'd have been pretty lost otherwise.

After some further thought, I think it's a good idea to run some diagnostics on your two pickups using a multimeter , before we modify the wiring scheme further. We already suspect something unusual occuring with the neck pickup, so these diagnostic tests will tell us more.

Use this instructional video for the tests to perform. Particularly the one occuring at about minutes 7 to 10 in the video where he shows how to determine which of the two wires per coil are positive or negative - that tells us the wind direction of each coil, which I am particularly interested in for the Neck pickup.

https://youtu.be/7UfxQBhqen8

If you do not already own a digital multimeter, expect to pay roughly between $20 and $30 for one of minimal decent quality. For example, I use a Sears Craftsman model that i saw listed online in that price range. A digitial multimeter is an invaluable tool that you will use frequently when working on the electronics in your guitars. Besides what I am asking you to use it for here, you can also use it to verify the value of pots before installation, as well as verify pickups are in working order or not before installation, check for continuity of each solder joint as just a couple examples.

[RexRemus]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Ok, I'll look it over and test. I have a decent Fluke so we should be all good there - that's how I've been testing the continuity of everything from previous posts. But as before, it may be a little while until I can carve out a day to tear it all apart again. but once I get there I'll report back. Thanks for the info.

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Ok, I'll look it over and test. I have a decent Fluke so we should be all good there - that's how I've been testing the continuity of everything from previous posts. But as before, it may be a little while until I can carve out a day to tear it all apart again. but once I get there I'll report back. Thanks for the info.

Ok. A full tear down shouldn't be necessary. Just unsolder the 8 locations where the green, red, white and black wires for each of the twovhumbuckers. Bare wire for each pickup can remain soldered where they currently are. The humbuckers don't even need to be removed. You just need access to those 8 wires.

Edit: i was just refesshing myself on this video, and based on what he covers at about the 3minute 30 second mark: yes, also desolder the bare wires from their current locations.

[RexRemus]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Ok Jack, finally had some time to watch that video.

Initial testing on the neck pickup - I want to verify I'm doing this right...

North start = black = ground (com/black on the meter)
North Finish = white = hot (red on the meter)

When testing by tapping the pickup I get negative voltage when touching and positive voltage when pulling away.

This is on the coil opposite the logo (nearest to neck) with the pickup installed "normally" - not rotated.

If I do green(south start) to ground and red (south finish) to hot I see positive voltage when touching and negative voltage when pulling away and this is on the logo coil (inner).

It seems like the north coil is reverse polarity - but the south coil isn't? Am I reading that right?

I assume coil starts are ground and coil finishes are hot? Is that a bad assumption?

I have not tested the bridge yet, but I will be next and I'll post that.just wanted your opinion on the neck first

Thanks!

[RexRemus]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

So I see the same thing on the bridge with the north coil. So maybe I have it backwards and black is the hot and white is ground? But if I reverse that for the south coil, green hot, red ground - that shows negative touch, positive pull.

So maybe I missed something or I'm doing something wrong.

But I guess, right or wrong the bottom line is they are wired the same way. Same magnetic polarity, and same winding. In that video you sent I think he called this PRS wiring and that probably makes sense because Mark Holcomb's signature guitar line that these pickups go into are PRS guitars. So maybe that explains the weirdness from the start of all this?

Thoughts?

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

So I see the same thing on the bridge with the north coil. So maybe I have it backwards and black is the hot and white is ground? But if I reverse that for the south coil, green hot, red ground - that shows negative touch, positive pull.

So maybe I missed something or I'm doing something wrong.

But I guess, right or wrong the bottom line is they are wired the same way. Same magnetic polarity, and same winding. In that video you sent I think he called this PRS wiring and that probably makes sense because Mark Holcomb's signature guitar line that these pickups go into are PRS guitars. So maybe that explains the weirdness from the start of all this?

Thoughts?

One of the main benefits of that video, is gaining the skill of how to figure out what each wire does without having any background information about the pickup at hand. So, I am a little hesitant to answer your questions, because instead, you should go back and use the techniques in the video to answer those questions. And forget your assumptions about you think you already know about each pickup, like "start wire is hot and finish wire is ground"... let the results of these tests instead tell you what is what.

Of course, if you have limits on your free time where you won't be able to run these tests again for several more days, then yes I could answer your questions so we could move this issue forward. But if you can re-run the tests and use the techniques to answer your own questions, that would really help you in the long run, as far as understanding how to use the techniques in the video to their full potential.

Also, did you notice that he pointed out that the "North" needle on a compass points to a *south* magnet? So you may want to re-evaluate the results you got from your compass tests a few days ago that you reported to me earlier.

Also, if you did not do it already, please also perform the test he describes from about minute 3 to minute 4 of the ideo, of measuring *each* wire against *every other wire* on the pickup, including the bare wire. This reveals if either of the two coils has a short. We want to know about this for each pickup.

[RexRemus]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Ok. Went through everything again today and took detailed notes. No shorts on either pickup - testing all leads against all others.

Both pickups appear to be wired the same, and have the same polarity, so these results apply to both:

Testing orientation:
Pickup facing up, logo right side up on bottom, cable exits to the right

Polarity Testing:
Magnet points north at bottom (logo) coil, points south at top coil - Top coil = North, Bottom coil = South
The marked north end of the test magnet points to bottom coil - north, pointing to south as you say, and the south end points to the top (north) coil. This is, honestly confusing because it depends on how the "testing" magnet is labeled - if north is ACTUALLY north, or the "north pointing" (actually south) end... Conceptually it's easy, it's harder to get the ACTUAL info - at least for the tool I was using. Next time I'll just get a damn compass...

Coil wiring & Voltage testing:
North start/hot (Black) to positive test lead, North finish/ground/negative (White) to common test lead - Positive DC voltage on touch, negative voltage on removal on top/north polarity coil
South start/hot (Red) to positive test lead, South finish/ground/negative (Green) to common test lead - Positive DC voltage on touch, negative voltage on removal on bottom/south polarity coil

So, my belief is that unlike initially assumed, the neck pickup does not need to be flipped for inners/outers (confirmed from previous hookup and testing) because it's magnet has already been "flipped" so that inners/outers would be N+S coils in both positions. It is not reverse wound however since it shows the exact same voltage when connected the same way as the bridge - black hot/white ground shows positive on both, vs showing negative (meaning white hot/black ground) on the north coil and same for red/green on south coil.

So does this mean that polarity for the neck must be "flipped" via different wiring? Using red/white for hot/ground and tying together black/green vs the other way around?

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Ok. Went through everything again today and took detailed notes. No shorts on either pickup - testing all leads against all others.

Both pickups appear to be wired the same, and have the same polarity, so these results apply to both:

Testing orientation:
Pickup facing up, logo right side up on bottom, cable exits to the right

Polarity Testing:
Magnet points north at bottom (logo) coil, points south at top coil - Top coil = North, Bottom coil = South
The marked north end of the test magnet points to bottom coil - north, pointing to south as you say, and the south end points to the top (north) coil. This is, honestly confusing because it depends on how the "testing" magnet is labeled - if north is ACTUALLY north, or the "north pointing" (actually south) end... Conceptually it's easy, it's harder to get the ACTUAL info - at least for the tool I was using. Next time I'll just get a damn compass...

Coil wiring & Voltage testing:
North start/hot (Black) to positive test lead, North finish/ground/negative (White) to common test lead - Positive DC voltage on touch, negative voltage on removal on top/north polarity coil
South start/hot (Red) to positive test lead, South finish/ground/negative (Green) to common test lead - Positive DC voltage on touch, negative voltage on removal on bottom/south polarity coil

So, my belief is that unlike initially assumed, the neck pickup does not need to be flipped for inners/outers (confirmed from previous hookup and testing) because it's magnet has already been "flipped" so that inners/outers would be N+S coils in both positions. It is not reverse wound however since it shows the exact same voltage when connected the same way as the bridge - black hot/white ground shows positive on both, vs showing negative (meaning white hot/black ground) on the north coil and same for red/green on south coil.

So does this mean that polarity for the neck must be "flipped" via different wiring? Using red/white for hot/ground and tying together black/green vs the other way around?

Great work! I hope you found this - while maybe a pain to have do twice - very helpful in understanding pickups.

Your findings match my expectations based on what we observed originally with the pickups hooked up. Particularly, the Neck pickup has its magnet flipped in the opposite direction of normal but the wind direction of the coils is still normal.

So my suggestion from a few replies ago for how to correct for this (before we decided to first take these measurements) still applies: you will swap places for where the neck pickup wires attach to the two-way switch. Those wire swaps accomplish the goal of reversing the flow of electricity through the coils, so that it ends up as a defacto reverse wind direction.

By the way, as far as understabding how that magnet came to be flipped, I do not recall you ever answering my earlier question about whether you bought these pickups in New condition (where box was sealed and from an authorized Seymour Duncan dealer) or in Used condition? If you bought New, then that magnet flip was a mistake during the manufacturing process. If you bought Used, then the prior owner could have done the flip. So, what is the answer?

Also, regarding your last question about how a bar magnet is marked: this video says the logic for labeling "North" and "South" markings on a bar magnet are the same as for a compass: the end which coincidentally points towards the *geographic* North pole gets labeled "North". So the two types are consistent. And when using either type to measure a bar magnet like we are here, it suffices to do as we have done, which is to conclude that if the end marked "North" in our test magnet is attracted to a particular coil, then we conclude that side of the magnet under thar coil has the opposite magnetic polarity (south).

[RexRemus]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Thanks Jack and it was worth it, no worries there. I bought them new and sealed from Sweetwater. But as I mentioned previously, I wonder if the magnet flip is intentional for these as they came out of the custom shop originally and the artist who uses them has a PRS signature model and I believe most PRS HH configs have inner and outer coils combined - maybe I'm wrong? - so the flip may be intentional to make that easier to be hum canceling?

Either way, at least we know now. I'll try to get it rewired soon. I took everything apart and out to shield the cavity, and I have better wire for jumping and connecting everything, so it should be a bit nicer this time

https://photos.app.goo.gl/hhgvdpT2K6P3Rgou6

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Thanks Jack and it was worth it, no worries there. I bought them new and sealed from Sweetwater. But as I mentioned previously, I wonder if the magnet flip is intentional for these as they came out of the custom shop originally and the artist who uses them has a PRS signature model and I believe most PRS HH configs have inner and outer coils combined - maybe I'm wrong? - so the flip may be intentional to make that easier to be hum canceling?

Either way, at least we know now. I'll try to get it rewired soon. I took everything apart and out to shield the cavity, and I have better wire for jumping and connecting everything, so it should be a bit nicer this time

https://photos.app.goo.gl/hhgvdpT2K6P3Rgou6

Ok, sounds good.

I spent some time this morning researching the PRS Mark Holcomb guitar and its coilsplit options, PRS pickup wiring color codes, and typical PRS coil split methods.

The 6 string version of the Mark Holcomb guitar only has a 3 way switch, but does have a push-pull on the tone control for coilsplitting. It seems when the push-pull switch is up, position 1 is bridge pickup split, position 2 is splitcoil from eaxh humbucker combined in parallel, and position 3 is neck splitcoil. I could not find stated anywhere which particular coils are active in split coil mode.

https://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/electrics/model/se_mark_holcomb_2019

I also found the reference attached below, with PRS headstock printed on it so I am going to assume the information is correct and official. It shows that PRS brand Neck pickups are made so that the Neck magnet is flipped, but based on its Hot wire being (color-wise) the same as the Bridge pickup's Ground wire, it seems to me that PRS does not also reverse-wind the coils on their Neck pickupe, but instead during install into the guitar, wires them in reverse to achieve defacto reverse wind (like we are about to do in your guitar). Good time for me to mention if I have not yet: to achieve hum-canceling when two coils are combined, each coil needs to have opposite magnetic polarity and opposite wind direction. So on that basis, I could now conceive the possibility that the magnet flip on the Neck Halcomb pickup Seymour Duncan - yet without the reverse wind of each coil that usually accompanies a magnet flip on SD brand pickups, was intentional by the SD Custom Shop... since these pickups are commonly installed in guitars that would be wired in "PRS fashion".



However, since this Neck pickup is being sold in the aftermarket and in that case, many purchasers do not have PRS guitars nor are aware of this advanced level wiring method, it is disappointing that there is no printed advisory statement to that effect in the packaging of what you received from the custom shop, nor any mention of this on the product page for this pickup set on the Seymour Dincan site. Again, *if* my intepretation is correct about what I found about PRS pickup color code.

[Jack_TriPpEr]

Re: Help with HH wiring in Ibanez S-series

Ok, sounds good.

I spent some time this morning researching the PRS Mark Holcomb guitar and its coilsplit options, PRS pickup wiring color codes, and typical PRS coil split methods.

The 6 string version of the Mark Holcomb guitar only has a 3 way switch, but does have a push-pull on the tone control for coilsplitting. It seems when the push-pull switch is up, position 1 is bridge pickup split, position 2 is splitcoil from eaxh humbucker combined in parallel, and position 3 is neck splitcoil. I could not find stated anywhere which particular coils are active in split coil mode.

https://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/electrics/model/se_mark_holcomb_2019

I also found the reference attached below, with PRS headstock printed on it so I am going to assume the information is correct and official. It shows that PRS brand Neck pickups are made so that the Neck magnet is flipped, but based on its Hot wire being (color-wise) the same as the Bridge pickup's Ground wire, it seems to me that PRS does not also reverse-wind the coils on their Neck pickupe, but instead during install into the guitar, wires them in reverse to achieve defacto reverse wind (like we are about to do in your guitar). Good time for me to mention if I have not yet: to achieve hum-canceling when two coils are combined, each coil needs to have opposite magnetic polarity and opposite wind direction. So on that basis, I could now conceive the possibility that the magnet flip on the Neck Halcomb pickup Seymour Duncan - yet without the reverse wind of each coil that usually accompanies a magnet flip on SD brand pickups, was intentional by the SD Custom Shop... since these pickups are commonly installed in guitars that would be wired in "PRS fashion".

[ATTACH=CONFIG]105055[/ATTACH]

However, since this Neck pickup is being sold in the aftermarket and in that case, many purchasers do not have PRS guitars nor are aware of this advanced level wiring method, it is disappointing that there is no printed advisory statement to that effect in the packaging of what you received from the custom shop, nor any mention of this on the product page for this pickup set on the Seymour Dincan site. Again, *if* my intepretation is correct about what I found about PRS pickup color code.

Oops, i did not add the attachment that indicates the polarity of each coil of each humbucker.

Adding that now below. Note that this one and the prior one are in agreement that the Hot wire of the Neck pickup is colored like the Ground wire of the Bridge pickup, and vice versa.