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Thread: Ibanez wood fraud

  1. #41
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Yes, the SR520 has a lackered body and neck.

  2. #42
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsaBass View Post

    It's deliberate imprecision – not fraud.
    Uhm... it is deceptive. Maybe not to someone who's aware of the fiddling goin' on with wood names like you, but is remains wilfull deception. I'm just glad the bass sound good now, with the pups raised a bit. Made quite a difference.

  3. #43
    Mojo's Minions ItsaBass's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by WDeeGee View Post
    Uhm... it is deceptive. Maybe not to someone who's aware of the fiddling goin' on with wood names like you, but is remains wilfull deception. I'm just glad the bass sound good now, with the pups raised a bit. Made quite a difference.
    No, it is not.

    They stated what it is made of, and that’s almost certainly what it’s made of. What they stated simply covers a broad range of lumber.
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  4. #44
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsaBass View Post
    No, it is not.

    They stated what it is made of, and that’s almost certainly what it’s made of. What they stated simply covers a broad range of lumber.
    So what it is made of ?
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacew View Post
    So what it is made of ?
    Wood, according to 4/5 attorneys.
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  6. #46
    Mojo's Minions ItsaBass's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Jacew View Post
    So what it is made of ?
    As spec’d, most likely.
    Quote Originally Posted by LesStrat View Post
    Yogi Berra was correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by JOLLY View Post
    I do a few chord things, some crappy lead stuff, and then some rhythm stuff.

  7. #47
    Super Toneologist TMD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    The problem is that the customer and the manufacturer have different definitions for the term mahogany. When Ibanez prints the word in their sales literature or website and a guitar player reads it and thinks “cinnamon brown peppered with a charming non-pattern, like Gibson used in the ‘50s”, and Ibanez and the factory think, “Mahogany can mean so many things!”, that’s not communication.

  8. #48
    PenultimateTone Member Demanic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by TMD View Post
    The problem is that the customer and the manufacturer have different definitions for the term mahogany. When Ibanez prints the word in their sales literature or website and a guitar player reads it and thinks “cinnamon brown peppered with a charming non-pattern, like Gibson used in the ‘50s”, and Ibanez and the factory think, “Mahogany can mean so many things!”, that’s not communication.
    Caveat emptor

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  9. #49
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by Demanic View Post
    Caveat emptor

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    That's often said in defense of bad actors in business. I'd like to see a little effort from guitar companies to educate consumers about what they mean by "mahogany" and other terms. I'd like to see some glam shots of unfinished bodies and necks, featured right along with the same guitar pics we always see. If mahogany can mean any of a number of species, if the companies are acting in good faith and have nothing to hide, maybe they should stop hiding it.
    Last edited by TMD; 05-22-2020 at 04:00 PM.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    ^ Most people don't want to be educated in such matters......and from the debacle we've seen here, guitar players in general would be horrified because they only want to stir up a fuss that is wholly unrelated to the reality of the useful aspects of the guitar. This is the forum equivalent of clickbait.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Maybe if it's "wholly unrelated to the reality of the useful aspects of the guitar," then they could stop using those relatively meaningless buzzwords to sell their products. It seems to me that guitar players are (1) kept in the dark, (2) blamed for the situation, and (3) denied agency to do anything about it. I am not unsympathetic to the situation of the guitar companies and the factories, but there has to be some balance. If we're expected to let them do whatever they want in regards to building and marketing guitars, maybe we should know a little more about those things. That they're doing.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by TMD View Post
    When Ibanez prints the word in their sales literature or website and a guitar player reads it and thinks “cinnamon brown peppered with a charming non-pattern, like Gibson used in the ‘50s”, and Ibanez and the factory think, “Mahogany can mean so many things!”, that’s not communication.
    It's not communication, it's marketing.
    Quote Originally Posted by crusty philtrum View Post
    And that's probably because most people with electric guitars seem more interested in their own performance rather than the effect on the listener ... in fact i don't think many people who own electric guitars even give a poop about the effect on a listener. Which is why many people play electric guitars but very very few of them are actually musicians.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by dystrust View Post
    It's not communication, it's marketing.
    Some might call it lying. If they would just be a little more transparent, this could all be avoided. When information isn't forthcoming, we have to cling to what we can find. I am going to make buying decisions based on things like this.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Just buy from companies that don't do that, or at least don't appear to do that. Send them a message and let them know why you don't buy their products.
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  15. #55
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by TMD View Post
    Some might call it lying. If they would just be a little more transparent, this could all be avoided. When information isn't forthcoming, we have to cling to what we can find. I am going to make buying decisions based on things like this.
    That's what "Caveat emptor" means.

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  16. #56
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    They are selling as "mahogany" something that can most likely reasonably be called "mahogany," and which they most likely purchased as "mahogany."

    It's loose. It's vague. It's imprecise. It's broad and general. But for that very reason, it's not lying, it's not deception, and it's not fraud. They use the loose description on purpose, so they can use a wide variety of woods without being fraudulent. They wouldn't want to spec "Agathis" on something, and then have an unexpected problem with their Agathis wood supply.

    SO MANY types of low end Asian-Pacific lumber are sold as "mahogany." The factory itself probably buys their lumber for such guitars as "mahogany," from their lumber distributors, and don't know exactly what they are going to get, other than that it's something that the distributor is selling as "mahogany." If they knew exactly what they were getting and using for an entire line, they'd probably say so. "Agathis" can be referred to as mahogany. But sometimes it is referred to as Agathis. The difference? I'd say it's the known consistency of supply.

    In other words, it makes sense that the generality would be to prevent themselves from lying when using a wood supply that is by its nature inconsistent. Generality to cover your ass is not lying, deception, or fraud. It's knowing that you can't be specific, and stating as much.

    At any rate, this conversation really has nowhere to go until the OP sends a sample of the wood in to a lab for analysis. We have an out of focus photo with the wood obscured by coloring, and we are just trusting the OP's statement that the bass was supposed to have a mahogany body, based on serial number. We don't know the original retailer, or have access to the original description. And we don't have a proven timeline of when the manufacturer changed the published specs.

    For me, the bottom line is that if the OP thinks that fraud was committed, then by all means, report it to the appropriate authorities and see what happens with the case...and get ready to be laughed at.

    Nobody got screwed here. Probably not even when the bass was new, and certainly not if bought on the used market.

    You have to be smart enough to read through the noise made by marketing machines.
    Last edited by ItsaBass; 05-22-2020 at 07:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by LesStrat View Post
    Yogi Berra was correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by JOLLY View Post
    I do a few chord things, some crappy lead stuff, and then some rhythm stuff.

  17. #57
    Super Toneologist TMD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    We could keep talking in circles a while longer; that's always cool.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    I like chocolate ice cream
    All chocolate ice cream doesn't taste the same
    Sometimes it has less of the good stuff
    And more MSG

    I just dont keep buying the stuff I don't like
    Just to get the bucket it comes in
    That's stupid
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  19. #59
    PenultimateTone Member Demanic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsaBass View Post
    They are selling as "mahogany" something that can most likely reasonably be called "mahogany," and which they most likely purchased as "mahogany."

    It's loose. It's vague. It's imprecise. It's broad and general. But for that very reason, it's not lying, it's not deception, and it's not fraud. They use the loose description on purpose, so they can use a wide variety of woods without being fraudulent. They wouldn't want to spec "Agathis" on something, and then have an unexpected problem with their Agathis wood supply.

    SO MANY types of low end Asian-Pacific lumber are sold as "mahogany." The factory itself probably buys their lumber for such guitars as "mahogany," from their lumber distributors, and don't know exactly what they are going to get, other than that it's something that the distributor is selling as "mahogany." If they knew exactly what they were getting and using for an entire line, they'd probably say so. "Agathis" can be referred to as mahogany. But sometimes it is referred to as Agathis. The difference? I'd say it's the known consistency of supply.

    In other words, it makes sense that the generality would be to prevent themselves from lying when using a wood supply that is by its nature inconsistent. Generality to cover your ass is not lying, deception, or fraud. It's knowing that you can't be specific, and stating as much.

    At any rate, this conversation really has nowhere to go until the OP sends a sample of the wood in to a lab for analysis. We have an out of focus photo with the wood obscured by coloring, and we are just trusting the OP's statement that the bass was supposed to have a mahogany body, based on serial number. We don't know the original retailer, or have access to the original description. And we don't have a proven timeline of when the manufacturer changed the published specs.

    For me, the bottom line is that if the OP thinks that fraud was committed, then by all means, report it to the appropriate authorities and see what happens with the case...and get ready to be laughed at.

    Nobody got screwed here. Probably not even when the bass was new, and certainly not if bought on the used market.

    You have to be smart enough to read through the noise made by marketing machines.
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  20. #60
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    Default Re: Ibanez wood fraud

    Professor at university where I went used to use Pseudotsuga Menziesii as example of this:

    Pseudotsuga means pseudo-hemlock, its common name is Douglas fir, in finnish it's Douglas spruce and when it's processed, wood sold is Oregon pine... It is really none of those, but it's own genus completely.

    Point is if they're selling Agathis as mahogany, it's very deliberate misleading, as both are commonly used woods in instruments by the name, and mahogany simply is better selling material. I think arguing over whether that's "lying", "misleading" or "fraud" is pointless semantics. We all know by know in thread what's going on.

    Of course it could legtitly some other species commonly sold as mahogany, and I, for one, would be interested to know what?
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