Each pedal on pedalboard - connector in/out+true bypass - how much capacitance added?

[Larioso]

Comparing going direct to a HiZ input on a mixer from guitar or through all 9 devices/pedals.
A couple of GeorgeL and a couple some other 15-30 cm cable.

There is a tiny edge lost in highs and trying to see what can be optimized.

Thinking each connector add capacitance apart from cord itself.

Anybody saw numbers on this?

Again question is raised if to get a bypass looper and possibly gain some from that?
It's one thing when a pedal is active, it usually does something so not a problem.

Are the bypass circuits better than two standard connectors each pedal that is true bypass on each pedal?

Would be cool if I could make it less detectable, the loss I mean.

Thanks.

[FuseG4]

Re: Each pedal on pedalboard - connector in/out+true bypass - how much capacitance ad

Guitar cable averages about 30pF/ft
Average pedal connector is probably 6 in.
So each pedal connector adding probably 15pF

Putting some pedals in a loop switcher should definitely help

[devastone]

Re: Each pedal on pedalboard - connector in/out+true bypass - how much capacitance ad

Put a buffer in the chain and you'll get all your highs back.

[NegativeEase]

Re: Each pedal on pedalboard - connector in/out+true bypass - how much capacitance ad

Did I read that right? you have 9 true bypass pedals? really?

I would like to add that unless you plan on playing with all of your pedals off (Surely some of these are always on right?) then a buffer is going to be engaged in your chain when any single pedal is on. So all this calculation worry of HF loss is really not a worry (unless you raw dawgin' it -but with a pedal board of 9 pedals -I doubt it.)

[PFDarkside]

Re: Each pedal on pedalboard - connector in/out+true bypass - how much capacitance ad

I am a complete numbers nerd and I’ve never calculated it. Here’s the deal, If you want straight into the amp tone, then play straight into the amp. Otherwise forget that tone and let’s optimize your tone as is.

Unless you are using vintage style fuzzes, Univibe or wah, put a buffer first. Depending on your pedals, that will address 90% of it. Sometimes amps act weird when they are driven with different impedances. If you find you’ve got some odd levels/signals going on when you engage or disengage certain pedals, put a buffer at the end of the pedals before the amp. At this point you need to address your power situation. If you are using an isolated supply, good. If you aren’t, have batteries in all your pedals and start pulling power connectors (run them on battery) to see if it ever gets quieter. I thought I had a quiet chain until I did this. Finally, if you want the best signal, put all the effects in a true bypass loop switcher, so only the effect you want on is in the signal path. Also, with 9 pedals a programmable looper cuts down on tap dancing...

This is a lot, costs money and many players here think it’s unnecessary. If the buffer first in line solves your problems, cool. If you think you are going to keep chasing the last .5%, you may as well plan for the above. The good thing is that after you get buffers/cables/power/switcher it’s good long term. Any new purchases are just swapping in new toys.

[devastone]

Re: Each pedal on pedalboard - connector in/out+true bypass - how much capacitance ad

Good point on if any pedal is on, there is a buffer, some pedals are better buffers than others, but yeah, there is something active in there.

The longer the cable run, the more capacitance, so the more high end roll off, but good call on the GL's, they are some of the lowest capacitance cables you can get.

And as has been stated in other places, Hendrix used coily cables and crappy bypass pedals, nobody complained.

[Larioso]

Re: Each pedal on pedalboard - connector in/out+true bypass - how much capacitance ad

Good input, thanks guys.

Only way to to learn your gear is to spend enough time using it - so that is what I do.
If I can go all nerdy - I'll do that too.

Pedalboard is a lab to find the sweetest combinations for each guitar+pickup+pedals+amp.
The guys we look up to with that killer tone most probably did that at some time in their career.
Comparing gear only - not playing - but aspiring so.

There is some sign I saw on a wall in a waiting room "We make wonders while you wait - miracles take a little longer".
Something to that meaning.

It's just a home studio - but as retired doing this full time I'm darn serious about it.

[Aceman]

Re: Each pedal on pedalboard - connector in/out+true bypass - how much capacitance ad

My old abused ears have never noticed a damn thing. I usually use a 20' from pedals to amp, or occasionally another form guitars to pedals.

Wireless?

[Larioso]

Re: Each pedal on pedalboard - connector in/out+true bypass - how much capacitance ad

My old abused ears have never noticed a damn thing. I usually use a 20' from pedals to amp, or occasionally another form guitars to pedals.

Wireless?

That is what Roland/Boss count on - so they can sell their pedals that color sound whether on or off through buffers.

I have FreqOut right after guitar, since working best that way.
Flipping the switch for momentary on - it's not longer true bypass and buffered instead - that fixed it pretty much, my "edge" is back.
So this being low impedance out - frequency loss is much less.
It's high impedance and long cable that make capacitance matter.

I found that one multimeter I have also measure capacitance.
It showed 1.8 nF without buffering through entire board.

Just 1.6m GeorgeL become 0.14 nF - so that edge is gone if doing all true bypass through board now being 1.8 nF.

Those numbers had Mackie mixer HiZ input 0.11 nF deducted, no cable just a plug.

Just interesting how it works...

[Hank-]

Re: Each pedal on pedalboard - connector in/out+true bypass - how much capacitance ad

You are getting 1800pF capacitance reading just through your pedalboard?

Perhaps this is going to be worth investing in then for long runs of cables http://zerocapcable.com/?page_id=44

A common neutrik np2x plug will be around 14pF. I wouldn't worry about it unless you were using gold plated plugs, those tend to add capacitance & smooth the sound out. Having tried those, I prefer cheap amphenol ones, forgot the product no. but it's durable nickel body with satin finish I think, been years since I bought those.

[Larioso]

Re: Each pedal on pedalboard - connector in/out+true bypass - how much capacitance ad

How cool isn't that - although he refers to main cable from guitar, and using 1" ones between pedals.

I believe a bypass looper switch though, could solve many things if well designed with good goldplated relays.
All not used - would just pass these relays and not all the internals of each pedal.

So if not needing the kind of switcher that also can rearrange order of each pedal - the amount of poles each relay can stay rather low.

I tested some different cables I've got 15 cm, 60 cm and they were not the best. The 15 cm turned out to be 30-40 pF alone meaning each meter more than 6 times that. But hard to say how much is cable alone, since two plugs too.

Or maybe as Aceman suggested have a short cable to wireless sender in your back pocket. If the wireless system is good, that is.
I saw a rig tour with Petrucci where he named the brand he uses - and tested many that color too much.

Now that I found I had this instrument thinking out of interest do test each pedal right into this mixer and see if one of them is worse than the others. True bypass should mean not contact with electronics inside, but if cheating on that would add pF.

[GuitarStv]

Re: Each pedal on pedalboard - connector in/out+true bypass - how much capacitance ad



https://www.thegigrig.com/g2



That's what you want. Keeps pedals out of your chain until you're using them, includes midi control, pedal board routing options (so you can kick on multiple pedals at the same time in any order), and can be set up to boost/drop volume of pedals if necessary.

[Larioso]

Re: Each pedal on pedalboard - connector in/out+true bypass - how much capacitance ad

Yes, I have been eyeballing that one for a year or so - but it's €1000 and just felt a bit too much. But unsurpassed in what they claim at least - something they call true bypass - but really make all the possible connections would create a monstrous amount of poles and relays. So they cheat with some matrix they talk about.

So thinking the simpler ones possibly available doing 6-8 pedals maybe and fixed order.

But really just now, I think buffering with FreqOut pedal really did the trick with high loss, I think.

But the Gigrig G2 is incredible in how you can test freely different orders of pedals and see what comes out - fun in itself. Then change preset and another order.

[GuitarStv]

Re: Each pedal on pedalboard - connector in/out+true bypass - how much capacitance ad

Yeah, too rich for my blood too. As long as I keep things under 8 pedals, and run one with a buffer somewhere near the start of the chain, things are good enough for my purposes. If I won the lottery though, I'd get a gigrig immediately.

[Erlend_G]

Re: Each pedal on pedalboard - connector in/out+true bypass - how much capacitance ad

I am a complete numbers nerd and I’ve never calculated it. Here’s the deal, If you want straight into the amp tone, then play straight into the amp. Otherwise forget that tone and let’s optimize your tone as is.

Unless you are using vintage style fuzzes, Univibe or wah, put a buffer first. Depending on your pedals, that will address 90% of it. Sometimes amps act weird when they are driven with different impedances. If you find you’ve got some odd levels/signals going on when you engage or disengage certain pedals, put a buffer at the end of the pedals before the amp. At this point you need to address your power situation. If you are using an isolated supply, good. If you aren’t, have batteries in all your pedals and start pulling power connectors (run them on battery) to see if it ever gets quieter. I thought I had a quiet chain until I did this. Finally, if you want the best signal, put all the effects in a true bypass loop switcher, so only the effect you want on is in the signal path. Also, with 9 pedals a programmable looper cuts down on tap dancing...

This is a lot, costs money and many players here think it’s unnecessary. If the buffer first in line solves your problems, cool. If you think you are going to keep chasing the last .5%, you may as well plan for the above. The good thing is that after you get buffers/cables/power/switcher it’s good long term. Any new purchases are just swapping in new toys.

My Blackstar HT-20mkII sounds different- with a Joyo analog delay in between amp and guitar- or going straight cable,
I've guessed this to be an "impedance" issue.