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Thread: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

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    Mojo's Minions ItsaBass's Avatar
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    Default Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    Hello,

    I know this has been discussed before, but it has been a while, and I have forgot the info.

    I like the sonic features of Triple Shots. I do not like operating the little switches on them, and I do not like the way they look. I also don't like soldering the pickup leads to them.

    I want to wire up my newish D'Angelico DC with these switching options (series, parallel, or either coil alone), but I do not want to use Triple Shots to get them.

    Do any of you know how to do this?

    For instance, with four push-push pots and a classic Gibson V/T/V/T setup: V/T both down for series. V/T both up for parallel. Tone up, volume down on neck pickup gives you slug coil. Tone up, volume down on bridge pickup gives you screw coil. Volume up, tone down on neck pickup gives you screw coil. Volume up, tone down on bridge pickup gives you slug coil.

    I can probably figure this out with some time, but I was wondering if any of you have a readily available diagram and/or hints.

    Thank you.
    Quote Originally Posted by LesStrat View Post
    Yogi Berra was correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by JOLLY View Post
    I do a few chord things, some crappy lead stuff, and then some rhythm stuff.

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    Mojo's Minions ItsaBass's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    P.S. This is the best I can dig up at the moment, from member Phostenix on TDPRI, via a Google search. Before I invest the time and money, does it seem correct?

    The sketch uses the Duncan color codes, and I can probably figure out how to translate it to push-push pots.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by LesStrat View Post
    Yogi Berra was correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by JOLLY View Post
    I do a few chord things, some crappy lead stuff, and then some rhythm stuff.

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    Mojo's Minions beaubrummels's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    If I search for “Duncan push pulls with prails” and switch to the ‘images’ tab, I can see a preview of two diagrams that do it, but the Duncan site is broken if you click through. Maybe you can get enough information from the preview image.
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    OH THE DOUBLE THICK GLAZE! Clint 55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    I don't see why that diagram wouldn't be legit. Those are on/on switches eh?
    Turning around to the
    Next set of lies
    Wondering what will come next

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    Super Toneologist Jack_TriPpEr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    A forum member posted this about a year or two ago, and once I analyzed it and confirmed it works as advertised, i saved this copy of it. A little later I will search through my subsribed threads and try to find the link for that thread, and add it in a reply.

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    Edit: translating this from Bridge P-Rail to standard SD humbucker.

    Rail coil -> North coil/ Slug coil
    P-90 coil -> South coil/ Screw coil

    The Bridge P-Rail pickup is an odd-ball with regards to wiring color code because it uses Red and Green wires for the coil that has North magnetic polarity and that coil is situated as an Inside coil. Standard SD humbuckers are the opposite in all those regards i.e. Red & Green wires are used on the coil that has South magnetic polarity and it is situated as the Outside coil.
    Last edited by Jack_TriPpEr; 05-27-2020 at 04:26 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

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    LoveMachineologist jeremy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots


  7. #7
    Super Toneologist Jack_TriPpEr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy View Post
    No, he said he wants control over each pickup individually. That scheme changes both pickups at the same time.
    Last edited by Jack_TriPpEr; 05-27-2020 at 01:31 PM. Reason: Typos
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

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    Mojo's Minions ItsaBass's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by jeremy View Post
    It's in the neighborhood. It does roughly what I want, but ties the two pickups together to do it. Those two DPDTs could be split into four switches instead, without doing too much cipherin' to the diagram.
    Quote Originally Posted by LesStrat View Post
    Yogi Berra was correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by JOLLY View Post
    I do a few chord things, some crappy lead stuff, and then some rhythm stuff.

  9. #9
    Super Toneologist Jack_TriPpEr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsaBass View Post
    P.S. This is the best I can dig up at the moment, from member Phostenix on TDPRI, via a Google search. Before I invest the time and money, does it seem correct?

    The sketch uses the Duncan color codes, and I can probably figure out how to translate it to push-push pots.

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	TS Toggle.jpg 
Views:	27 
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ID:	105081
    BTW, I will analyze this a later today and let you know if it works as advertised or not.

    I like the design intent to have the position combinations match the Triple Shots exactly.
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

  10. #10
    Administrator Mincer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    I can see this being helpful for anyone who doesn't like the idea of the Triple Shots. While I do like them, they don't work as well with pickguards, and they aren't ergonomically great to switch sounds quickly.
    Dave, Ambassador/Writer/Artist for Seymour Duncan

    My Guitar, Gear, and Music Webpage

    Gear pics and more on my Instagram.

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    Mojo's Minions ItsaBass's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_TriPpEr View Post
    BTW, I will analyze this a later today and let you know if it works as advertised or not.

    I like the design intent to have the position combinations match the Triple Shots exactly.
    Thank you.

    If it works, then to get what I want, the top version applies to the neck pickup, and the bottom version to the bridge pickup. When running a pickup split, I want the "lean" of the switches to correlate to the position of the active coil. I.e. I want to think of it in my head as splitting to the neck-most coil or the bridge-most coil – not "inner" or "outer" coils.

    I actually wouldn't mind drilling this guitar for toggle switches. I just don't know where they would go that would be ergonomic and decent looking.
    Quote Originally Posted by LesStrat View Post
    Yogi Berra was correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by JOLLY View Post
    I do a few chord things, some crappy lead stuff, and then some rhythm stuff.

  12. #12
    Super Toneologist Jack_TriPpEr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsaBass View Post
    Thank you.

    If it works, then to get what I want, the top version applies to the neck pickup, and the bottom version to the bridge pickup. When running a pickup split, I want the "lean" of the switches to correlate to the position of the active coil. I.e. I want to think of it in my head as splitting to the neck-most coil or the bridge-most coil – not "inner" or "outer" coils.

    I actually wouldn't mind drilling this guitar for toggle switches. I just don't know where they would go that would be ergonomic and decent looking.
    I ended up doing this sooner than later.

    The good news is that the switches work, BUT the lean of each switch in the splitcoil modes, is *opposite* of the actual coil location. BTW, the top 4 positions in the original sketch you posted is for the Bridge pickup, and the bottom 4 for the Neck pickup.

    I know that this "opposite lean direction" was also existant on the Triple Shots themselves, and the back of the packaging actually said how to swap certain wires to correct for that. I have a pic of that packaging and will review it to see how to apply that mod to this switch scheme and will get back to you a little later.

    Edit: yes, you can correct for it by applying the first 4 of the original scheme sketch to the Neck pickup instead of the Bridge, ans vice versa. Good spot on that.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Jack_TriPpEr; 05-27-2020 at 02:34 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

  13. #13
    Mojo's Minions ItsaBass's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_TriPpEr View Post
    I ended up doing this sooner than later.

    The good news is that the switches work, BUT the lean of each switch in the splitcoil modes, is *opposite* of the actual coil location. BTW, the top 4 positions in the original sketch you posted is for the Bridge pickup, and the bottom 4 for the Neck pickup.

    I know that this "opposite lean direction" was also existant on the Triple Shots themselves, and the back of the packaging actually said how to swap certain wires to correct for that. I have a pic of that packaging and will review it to see how to apply that mod to this switch scheme and will get back to you a little later.

    Edit: yes, you can correct for it by applying the first 4 of the original scheme sketch to the Neck pickup instead of the Bridge, ans vice versa. Good spot on that.

    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	105090
    Thank you.

    In the hand drawn diagram I posted, each of the two approaches is not meant for any one pickup position in particular. Either one is meant for either pickup position. They are two variations, each of which provides a different orientation of the toggles (the "lean" we were talking about) when the pickups are split.
    Quote Originally Posted by LesStrat View Post
    Yogi Berra was correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by JOLLY View Post
    I do a few chord things, some crappy lead stuff, and then some rhythm stuff.

  14. #14
    Super Toneologist Jack_TriPpEr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsaBass View Post
    Thank you.

    In the hand drawn diagram I posted, each of the two approaches is not meant for any one pickup position in particular. Either one is meant for either pickup position. They are two variations, each of which provides a different orientation of the toggles (the "lean" we were talking about) when the pickups are split.
    Yes, you can ignore my earlier statement about "1st set is for Bridge" etc. By the time of my "edit" comment I spotted that wasn't necessarily true but was squeezed for time in what I could cover in that "edit" comment. We are on the same page.
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

  15. #15
    Super Toneologist Jack_TriPpEr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsaBass View Post
    Thank you.

    If it works, then to get what I want, the top version applies to the neck pickup, and the bottom version to the bridge pickup. When running a pickup split, I want the "lean" of the switches to correlate to the position of the active coil. I.e. I want to think of it in my head as splitting to the neck-most coil or the bridge-most coil – not "inner" or "outer" coils.

    I actually wouldn't mind drilling this guitar for toggle switches. I just don't know where they would go that would be ergonomic and decent looking.
    Did you see the alternative approach using 2 push pulls (or push-pushes) per pickup that I posted in Reply #5? In case that seems intuitive enough to usr and spare any new drill-holes in your guitar...
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

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    Mojo's Minions ItsaBass's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    Really wishing I could easily find 1M linear push-push pots.......
    Quote Originally Posted by LesStrat View Post
    Yogi Berra was correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by JOLLY View Post
    I do a few chord things, some crappy lead stuff, and then some rhythm stuff.

  17. #17
    Super Toneologist Jack_TriPpEr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by ItsaBass View Post
    Really wishing I could easily find 1M linear push-push pots.......
    Yeah, that is tough one. I just searched onlinejust now for 1meg Fender S1 as an alternative, but not seeing anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

  18. #18
    Bengalsologist MikeS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    I've read references to both push/pulls and toggles. Electrically, both are on/on DT switches and accomplish the same thing. I respect that it's your guitar and you're free to do what you want, but wiring in 4 mini-toggles into a semi-hollow isn't something I would wish on anyone! If you're still open to considering push/pulls then the Duncan diagram that Jeremy posted is what you want, you simply need to split the poles and spread them across 4 push/pulls. If you're looking for 1M push/pulls, they exist:
    https://guitarelectronics.com/bourns...h-pull-switch/
    https://reverb.com/item/17783278-bou...sh-pull-switch

    Best thing to remember when working with P-Rails is that the sets are already RWRP, and the P90 coils are always black and white leads. Approaching it that way makes diagramming a lot easier.

    I know you said you wanted individual controls, but when I was wiring up my Soltero with P-Rails I played around with converting from VTVT to VVT with a 5T4P rotary (series, parallel, P90, Rail, and coil swap). Unfortunately the rotary wasn't going to fit in the control cavity. While this doesn't serve your needs, I always felt like using multiple push/pulls to get all 4 sounds was cumbersome and that a rotary would have made a great solution.
    Duncan Pickups in currently in use: '59 (rewound to PATB-3)/'59, Custom 5/AP2H, Tapped QP set for Tele, Crazy 8/Cool Rails, Custom 5/Phat Cat, SP90-1/SP90-2, SHPR-1b/SHPR-1n, SMB-5D

  19. #19
    Super Toneologist Jack_TriPpEr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeS View Post
    I've read references to both push/pulls and toggles. Electrically, both are on/on DT switches and accomplish the same thing. I respect that it's your guitar and you're free to do what you want, but wiring in 4 mini-toggles into a semi-hollow isn't something I would wish on anyone! If you're still open to considering push/pulls then the Duncan diagram that Jeremy posted is what you want, you simply need to split the poles and spread them across 4 push/pulls. If you're looking for 1M push/pulls, they exist:
    https://guitarelectronics.com/bourns...h-pull-switch/
    https://reverb.com/item/17783278-bou...sh-pull-switch

    Best thing to remember when working with P-Rails is that the sets are already RWRP, and the P90 coils are always black and white leads. Approaching it that way makes diagramming a lot easier.

    I know you said you wanted individual controls, but when I was wiring up my Soltero with P-Rails I played around with converting from VTVT to VVT with a 5T4P rotary (series, parallel, P90, Rail, and coil swap). Unfortunately the rotary wasn't going to fit in the control cavity. While this doesn't serve your needs, I always felt like using multiple push/pulls to get all 4 sounds was cumbersome and that a rotary would have made a great solution.
    He probably wouldn't be using all 4 switches at once, though. Since he said he wanted switching control over each individual pickup, that denotes the likelihood that in most cases for him, he only wanted to change the settings on one pickup at a time. And also the likelihoof that he may have wanted to combine the two pickups in Position 2 with each pickup set differently. In that case, the diagram I posted earlier that features two 2DPTs per humbucker is more aligned to what he described.

    But agreed, if the guitar is a semi-hollow type, drilling in new holes for mini-switches isn't generally advisable if enough pots are already there to convert to push-pull or push-push.


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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

  20. #20
    Mojo's Minions ItsaBass's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using Four Switches to Match Triple Shots

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_TriPpEr View Post
    Yeah, that is tough one. I just searched onlinejust now for 1meg Fender S1 as an alternative, but not seeing anything.
    Audio taper is no problem to find. Linear is the hard part. Add that I want push/push, and it’s just not gonna happen. I can get it, but only in a custom order with a 1,000 piece minimum.

    Swapping in the 1M linear guts from a regular pot is going to be the only affordable way to get it.

    So I think it’s gonna be toggles.

    I definitely want the four switch controls, like the Triple Shots have. The visual nature of the switch positions just make a lot of sense to me, in terms of interface.

    This guitar has a back door for electronics access.
    Quote Originally Posted by LesStrat View Post
    Yogi Berra was correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by JOLLY View Post
    I do a few chord things, some crappy lead stuff, and then some rhythm stuff.

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