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Thread: 2 P Rail with tripleshot wiring diagram question

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    Default 2 P Rail with tripleshot wiring diagram question

    Hi!
    I'm hoping someone could shed some light on this for me.
    I recently purchased the P-rail humbuckers with triple shot and have a question about the wiring diagram for 2 humbuckers/2 triple shots, 1 volume push/pull phase switch, 1 tone push/pull Master series/Parallel Switch, 3 way toggle.

    I want to make sure I understand the assignments.

    Iíve attached a photo of the wiring diagram with my questions on it.

    Basically, my questions are these:
    1. Are the humbuckers shown as Neck (top), Bridge (bottom)
    2. regarding the volume and tone pots: TheyĒ face" each other with the tone rotated 180deg. Are the connection assignments on the tone pot rotated 180 degs as well? Same question on the lugs.
    3. Are the connection assignments as follows:
    1, 3
    C1, C2
    2, 4

    The attached image may better explain my questions.

    Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  2. #2
    Super Toneologist Jack_TriPpEr's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2 P Rail with tripleshot wiring diagram question

    Quote Originally Posted by richbooth View Post
    Hi!
    I'm hoping someone could shed some light on this for me.
    I recently purchased the P-rail humbuckers with triple shot and have a question about the wiring diagram for 2 humbuckers/2 triple shots, 1 volume push/pull phase switch, 1 tone push/pull Master series/Parallel Switch, 3 way toggle.

    I want to make sure I understand the assignments.

    I’ve attached a photo of the wiring diagram with my questions on it.

    Basically, my questions are these:
    1. Are the humbuckers shown as Neck (top), Bridge (bottom)
    2. regarding the volume and tone pots: They” face" each other with the tone rotated 180deg. Are the connection assignments on the tone pot rotated 180 degs as well? Same question on the lugs.
    3. Are the connection assignments as follows:
    1, 3
    C1, C2
    2, 4

    The attached image may better explain my questions.

    Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hi Rich,

    Welcome to the forum.

    1. Yes, the upper pickup is Neck, and the bottom pickup is Bridge.
    2. By "connection assignments", I assume you are asking about the connections to the push-pull sections of each pot, not the three lugs on each pot. And, no the connection assignments on each push-pull do not change dependent on the up or down orientation of the pot. See the pic below where I have marked up which side of the push-pull is "pulled up" vs "pushed down".
    3. I could help you better with this question about number labels for the push-pull if you provided some background in why you are asking this particular question.

    * additionally*....that wiring diagram has an error. The push-pull for the Master Series / Parallel is missing wire connections in the "up"position of the switch My attachment below shows a correctionn for this. There a couple ways to wire a Master Series Parallel switch, and the one I have implemented here, gives you the benefit of not having to have the 3 way pickup selector switch set to a particular position in order to avoid a cutout in all output when the Master Series Parallel switch is set to "In Series" (which is the Up position of the switch. An alternate approach of adding a jumper wire to the original diagram, (from the top left side of the MSP switch to the top right side of the switch) would work but has the downside that there will be no output from the guitar when the 3 way pickup selector switch is in Position 3.

    I will add the original version of the drawing and my correction to the thread that was started recently in this forum to flag diagrams that have errors so the company can correct them when time and resources allow.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Jack_TriPpEr; 06-03-2020 at 03:29 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: 2 P Rail with tripleshot wiring diagram question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack_TriPpEr View Post
    Hi Rich,

    Welcome to the forum.

    1. Yes, the upper pickup is Neck, and the bottom pickup is Bridge.
    2. By "connection assignments", I assume you are asking about the connections to the push-pull sections of each pot, not the three lugs on each pot. And, no the connection assignments on each push-pull do not change dependent on the up or down orientation of the pot. See the pic below where I have marked up which side of the push-pull is "pulled up" vs "pushed down".
    3. I could help you better with this question about number labels for the push-pull if you provided some background in why you are asking this particular question.

    * additionally*....that wiring diagram has an error. The push-pull for the Master Series / Parallel is missing wire connections in the "up"position of the switch My attachment below shows a correctionn for this. There a couple ways to wire a Master Series Parallel switch, and the one I have implemented here, gives you the benefit of not having to have the 3 way pickup selector switch set to a particular position in order to avoid a cutout in all output when the Master Series Parallel switch is set to "In Series" (which is the Up position of the switch. An alternate approach of adding a jumper wire to the original diagram, (from the top left side of the MSP switch to the top right side of the switch) would work but has the downside that there will be no output from the guitar when the 3 way pickup selector switch is in Position 3.

    I will add the original version of the drawing and my correction to the thread that was started recently in this forum to flag diagrams that have errors so the company can correct them when time and resources allow.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Hey Jack,
    I appreciate the feedback. It helps. Regarding your question about the labels, I have two cts dpdt push-pull pots, which is pictured below. As you'll see on the photo, the connection points are labeled. 1, 3, C1, C2, 2, 4. My question is how do I translate this on the diagram. I either have then right or need to rotate assign graph i made 180degs. I've also included the assignments as I think I read them correctly for the cts dpdt pots on your graphic. Please see it also. Is it correct?

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    Default Re: 2 P Rail with tripleshot wiring diagram question

    Quote Originally Posted by richbooth View Post
    Hey Jack,
    I appreciate the feedback. It helps. Regarding your question about the labels, I have two cts dpdt push-pull pots, which is pictured below. As you'll see on the photo, the connection points are labeled. 1, 3, C1, C2, 2, 4. My question is how do I translate this on the diagram. I either have then right or need to rotate assign graph i made 180degs. I've also included the assignments as I think I read them correctly for the cts dpdt pots on your graphic. Please see it also. Is it correct?

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    RE: the translation of CTS push-pull lugs to standard push-pull lugs, it's a little different than what you have noted. See attachment below.

    Also, I should mention with regards to the Master Series Parallel (MSP) switch, that regardless of which of the two methods I described for how to wire that switch, when the switch is in Series mode, the 3 way pickup selector switch is overriden *except* for what I already noted about Method #2.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

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    Default Re: 2 P Rail with tripleshot wiring diagram question

    Thanks! that's what I needed. Now one last thing and this newbie should be good to go :^)
    Looking at the attached drawing / schematic, which is correct; A, B, C or D?

    I truly appreciate you help.

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    Default Re: 2 P Rail with tripleshot wiring diagram question

    Thanks! that's what I needed. Now one last thing and this newbie should be good to go :^)
    Looking at the attached drawing / schematic, which is correct; A, B, C or D?

    I truly appreciate you help.

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  7. #7
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    Default Re: 2 P Rail with tripleshot wiring diagram question

    C

    ... and, you're welcome.
    Last edited by Jack_TriPpEr; 06-03-2020 at 07:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

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    Default Re: 2 P Rail with tripleshot wiring diagram question

    I wired my guitar according to the new modified schematic and have run across a couple of issues one of which I believe I’ve resolved. First, I should point out that I switch from CTS push pull volume and tone pots to Bourne audio taper push pull pots.
    After wiring I was not getting sound. I too my trusty multi meter and discovered the tone pot was not grounded. On a whim, I ran a ground from the volume to the tone pot. Viola, all was grounded and had sound. The next issue is a bit baffling; 1. Volume only seems to be present with the pot 80-100% max. Kinda strand with audio taper. 2. Tone is very
    Subtle with change. I have a .47 orange cap installed. I triple checked the wiring and feel fairly confident I have it as the modified schematic shows (plus the grounding fix I mentioned). Any ideas what the issues may be?

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    Default Re: 2 P Rail with tripleshot wiring diagram question

    Quote Originally Posted by richbooth View Post
    I wired my guitar according to the new modified schematic and have run across a couple of issues one of which I believe I’ve resolved. First, I should point out that I switch from CTS push pull volume and tone pots to Bourne audio taper push pull pots.
    After wiring I was not getting sound. I too my trusty multi meter and discovered the tone pot was not grounded. On a whim, I ran a ground from the volume to the tone pot. Viola, all was grounded and had sound. The next issue is a bit baffling; 1. Volume only seems to be present with the pot 80-100% max. Kinda strand with audio taper. 2. Tone is very
    Subtle with change. I have a .47 orange cap installed. I triple checked the wiring and feel fairly confident I have it as the modified schematic shows (plus the grounding fix I mentioned). Any ideas what the issues may be?
    Hi Rich,

    Goos job resolving the missing ground wire between volume pot and tone pot. That is an additional error in the original drawing, and I'm sorry I didn't spot it when I was fixing the other errors earlier.

    You wrote above that the value of the cap that you are using is 0.47. The diagram calls for a cap value of 0.047. The difference in tone between the two values is very significant. The value of cap you are using is not really appropriate on a tone control for passive humbuckers. A 0.47 value is used when the pickups are active. A 0.47 cap value will cut a LOT of treble from your tone, so your tone would sound dark. I recommend your next action be to replace that 0.47 cap with the 0.047 cap called for in the diagram.
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

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    Default Re: 2 P Rail with tripleshot wiring diagram question

    Ah! That will be my next step. I didn’t notice the difference in the cap values.
    As far as the issue with the volume only seeming to work between 80-100% max, is that to be expected?

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    Default Re: 2 P Rail with tripleshot wiring diagram question

    Quote Originally Posted by richbooth View Post
    Ah! That will be my next step. I didnít notice the difference in the cap values.
    As far as the issue with the volume only seeming to work between 80-100% max, is that to be expected?
    My first guess would be that the pot type is not actually audio, but linear. Look at the labeling on the pot. Most of the time an audio type will say "A" prior to the number that specifies the value of the pot. Like "A500K". See attached pic examples.

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: 2 P Rail with tripleshot wiring diagram question

    They are definitely audio taper pots.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: 2 P Rail with tripleshot wiring diagram question

    Quote Originally Posted by richbooth View Post
    They are definitely audio taper pots.
    Alright, my next suggestion would be to inspect the solder joints on all the lugs of the volume pot - make sure there are no cold solder joints. If you suspect any are, reflow solder on them. Also check if there any wires fhat sit near or against the volume pot and make sure none are causing some kind of short. Keep in mind the possibility that wires may change position when the control cavity plate is re-affixed - or if your guitar has a pickguard that the volume pot is mounted to, then when the pickguard is fastened back into position.
    Quote Originally Posted by GuitarDoc View Post
    Good diagram Shadowfire90, but it isn't what the OP wants.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanford View Post
    The hardest part about tone chasing is losing the expectations associated with the hardware.
    Quote Originally Posted by blueman335 View Post
    I've been slammed here a few times myself for not going with the crowd. I'd rather go in a different direction, and know why, then follow everyone else and not know why.

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