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50’s vs Modern wiring

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  • #16
    Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

    Originally posted by Lewguitar View Post
    When I do 50's wiring I don't go all out to be vintage accurate.

    For 50's wiring I connect the tone control to the output of the volume pot. The middle lug. So the tone control is AFTER the volume pot.

    For Modern wiring I connect the tone control to the input of the volume pot. The first lug. So the tone control is BEFORE the volume pot.
    Here's a diagram showing true 50's wiring vs. modern wiring. Look at the difference between the way the tone control is wired. I don't always do that.
    Attached Files
    “Practice cures most tone issues” - John Suhr

    Comment


    • #17
      50’s vs Modern wiring

      Originally posted by Clint 55 View Post
      I understand what you mean. Also, the darkening effect of the volume is different than tone. The resistance from volume dampens the entire signal and sounds differently than the capacitance from the tone which only cuts highs above the cap's cutoff. And how the volume functions can be important to rock playing. So yes, absolutely try either modern wiring or a 250k volume on the bridge if you think it might work for you.
      I was running a 250k pot for the last few years but once I switched the bridge pickup I wanted the 500k back in there. I love how it sounds with the volume full open it’s just too bright when I roll back.
      It makes me feel like I don’t want to “dig in” when I need to.

      But yes, you’re absolutely right about the tone knob sound being different then the rolled back darkening effect.
      Last edited by Gtrjunior; 07-11-2020, 05:03 AM.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

        Originally posted by Gtrjunior View Post
        I was running a 250k pot for the last few years but once I switched the bridge pickup I wanted the 500k back in there. I love how it sounds with the volume full open it’s just too bright when I roll back.
        It makes me feel like I don’t want to “dig in” when I need to.

        It yes, you’re absolutely right about the tone knob sound being different then the rolled back darkening effect.
        I play mostly PRS guitars these days. One volume and one tone and a LP style 3-way pickup selector switch is how I have them wired.

        I don't need a tone control on my neck pickup so on two of my guitars it's disconnected when I use the neck pickup only. Makes it a little clearer.

        But I HAVE to have a tone control on my bridge pickup, regardless of what kind of pickup or guitar it is.

        I like to turn the tone down to a certain sweet spot and then use a Dover Drive or Klon KTR to get those Clapton Woman Tones or Eric Johnson's violin tones. Gotta have a tone control for that.

        And if the tone control is disconnected from the neck pickup I can leave the tone set for that "sweet spot" when I switch to the bridge pickup.

        Works well for me.
        Last edited by Lewguitar; 07-10-2020, 01:58 PM.
        “Practice cures most tone issues” - John Suhr

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

          Originally posted by Gtrjunior View Post
          GtrSteve....what treble bleed value do you typically use or is there a value that you would recommend that would allow some of the treble to be lost as I roll off the volume?

          This is going to be dependent upon your setup . . . so the capacitance (and length) of the cables you use, the pickups you use, etc. I'd really recommend you buy 3-4 dollars worth of capacitors/resistors and alligator clips and spend an afternoon playing around until you find something that your ears like the best.


          That said, with my setup and single coils I usually like a 1.2nF cap in series with a 110 - 130k resistor. This keeps the brightness pretty consistent as I roll back the volume and doesn't mess up the volume pot taper too much. (If you do the resistor and cap in parallel you'll notice that this changes the taper of the volume pot, which may or may not matter to you.)

          A bigger cap value sets the range of treble as you roll down (larger value, more mids . . . smaller value you get just the highest of highs). The smaller the resistor value the louder this preserved treble will sound, the larger the resistor value the less treble you'll hear as you roll down. So, I'd suggest you start with 1.2nF cap and then maybe a 150 or 160k resistor if you still want the treble to mellow out a little as you roll back. But get a range of different values to play with to find what works for you.
          Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

          Originally posted by Douglas Adams
          This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

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          • #20
            Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

            Originally posted by GuitarStv View Post
            This is going to be dependent upon your setup . . . so the capacitance (and length) of the cables you use, the pickups you use, etc. I'd really recommend you buy 3-4 dollars worth of capacitors/resistors and alligator clips and spend an afternoon playing around until you find something that your ears like the best.


            That said, with my setup and single coils I usually like a 1.2nF cap in series with a 110 - 130k resistor. This keeps the brightness pretty consistent as I roll back the volume and doesn't mess up the volume pot taper too much. (If you do the resistor and cap in parallel you'll notice that this changes the taper of the volume pot, which may or may not matter to you.)

            A bigger cap value sets the range of treble as you roll down (larger value, more mids . . . smaller value you get just the highest of highs). The smaller the resistor value the louder this preserved treble will sound, the larger the resistor value the less treble you'll hear as you roll down. So, I'd suggest you start with 1.2nF cap and then maybe a 150 or 160k resistor if you still want the treble to mellow out a little as you roll back. But get a range of different values to play with to find what works for you.
            Great info. Thank you!

            First thing I’m going to do is wire the bridge pickup in modern style and see what that gives me.
            If that’s a no-go I’ll experiment a bit as you laid out here.
            Thanks again man.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

              Just an aside, treble bleeds work great with most overdrive and amp distortion . . . . but they suck hairy balls if a big part of your sound is using a fuzz face and rolling the volume back to clean up. This particular circuit combo doesn't play nicely together and will be shrill (fuzz face with volume full up sounds fine though).
              Join me in the fight against muscular atrophy!

              Originally posted by Douglas Adams
              This planet has - or rather had - a problem, which was this: most of the people living on it were unhappy for pretty much of the time. Many solutions were suggested for this problem, but most of these were largely concerned with the movements of small green pieces of paper, which is odd because on the whole it wasn't the small green pieces of paper that were unhappy.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

                Originally posted by GuitarStv View Post
                I find 50's wiring confusing. With 50s wiring the tone and volume pots work together and this can be confusing to use, especially live. Sometimes rolling the volume back will keep your tone, sometimes it'll roll off high end an awful lot, sometimes rolling the tone knob back will kill your volume.
                You're not going to get that from 50s wiring and independent volumes...results are very consistent. If you indeed have 50s wiring you probably have dependent volumes. Or you just had everything wired incorrectly.
                Originally Posted by IanBallard
                Rule of thumb... the more pot you have, the better your tone.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

                  Originally posted by Clint 55 View Post
                  I understand what you mean. Also, the darkening effect of the volume is different than tone. The resistance from volume dampens the entire signal and sounds differently than the capacitance from the tone which only cuts highs above the cap's cutoff. And how the volume functions can be important to rock playing. So yes, absolutely try either modern wiring or a 250k volume on the bridge if you think it might work for you.
                  Uh oh. I find myself agreeing more with Clint lately. I guess I'm going to have to schedule another session with my analyst.
                  Originally Posted by IanBallard
                  Rule of thumb... the more pot you have, the better your tone.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

                    Originally posted by Lewguitar View Post
                    When I do 50's wiring I don't go all out to be vintage accurate.

                    For 50's wiring I connect the tone control to the output of the volume pot. The middle lug. So the tone control is AFTER the volume pot.

                    For Modern wiring I connect the tone control to the input of the volume pot. The first lug. So the tone control is BEFORE the volume pot.
                    So, you do like dependent volumes with either 50's or modern tone wiring.
                    Last edited by GuitarDoc; 07-10-2020, 06:47 PM.
                    Originally Posted by IanBallard
                    Rule of thumb... the more pot you have, the better your tone.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

                      Originally posted by GuitarDoc View Post
                      So, you do like dependent volumes with either 50's or modern tone wiring.
                      Sure. My ES-335 is that kind of guitar. Like a Les Paul or SG. Two volumes, two tones.

                      But I prefer one volume, one tone guitars. All of my PRS guitars are one volume, one tone.

                      And my Teles are one volume, one tone.

                      And now that I think of it, both my Strats are set up that way too. One volume, one tone.

                      When I play my ES-335 I like to combine pickups and blend the two together with the two volume controls.

                      But I don't miss not being able to do that with my one volume, one tone guitars.
                      “Practice cures most tone issues” - John Suhr

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

                        As far as I know, the original Gibson wiring was 50s wiring with independent volumes. They later removed the independent part, and even later switched to modern wiring. That's what the local luthier/vintage stringed instrument collector says any way.

                        As far as I'm concerned vintage 50s wiring makes no sense at all. You'd get the dark bassy sound from rolling back the volume that you get from the independent wiring and you get the interactivity of the 50s wiring.

                        That's what's referred to as a Jack of no trades situation.
                        You will never understand How it feels to live your life With no meaning or control And with nowhere left to go You are amazed that they exist And they burn so bright
                        Whilst you can only wonder why

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

                          Originally posted by GuitarDoc View Post
                          So, you do like dependent volumes with either 50's or modern tone wiring.
                          Did I misunderstand your question?

                          I tend to like 50's wiring with humbuckers and "Modern" wiring with bright single coil guitars like Strats and Teles.

                          And my ES-335 is wired so if I turn the volume of either pickup all the way to zero both pickups are "off".

                          Is that "dependent volume"?

                          If so, yes. I prefer that on two pickup guitars with a volume control for each pickup.

                          When I was a kid and didn't know anything I accidently rewired a real '56 Les Paul "wrong" so that when I turned the volume all the way down on one pickup it did not affect the volume of the other pickup.

                          I guess that would be "independent volumes"?

                          I didn't like it and never made that "mistake" again.

                          Maybe just because it wasn't what I was used to.
                          Last edited by Lewguitar; 07-11-2020, 07:16 AM.
                          “Practice cures most tone issues” - John Suhr

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

                            Originally posted by Lewguitar View Post
                            And my ES-335 is wired so if I turn the volume of either pickup all the way to zero both pickups are "off".

                            Is that "dependent volume"?
                            Yes.

                            Originally posted by Lewguitar View Post
                            If so, yes. I prefer that on two pickup guitars with a volume control for each pickup.

                            When I was a kid and didn't know anything I accidently rewired a real '56 Les Paul "wrong" so that when I turned the volume all the way down on one pickup it did not affect the volume of the other pickup.

                            I guess that would be "independent volumes"?
                            Yes

                            Originally posted by Lewguitar View Post
                            I didn't like it and never made that "mistake" again.

                            Maybe just because it wasn't what I was used to.
                            That's probably it. Most of my earliest guitars, in the 60's (330, LP, SG), were two-pick-up Gibsons. I changed the wiring to 50's, independent volumes just to see how it differed. I've been playing with all my guitars wired that way ever since and am very used to it. I've tried a couple times to go back to the modern tone, dependent volumes wiring but I just can't get along with it. In fact it is very irritating to me...I feel that I don't have complete control over my guitars. It feels like my guitars are telling me what they are going to do rather than the other way around.
                            Last edited by GuitarDoc; 07-11-2020, 08:11 AM.
                            Originally Posted by IanBallard
                            Rule of thumb... the more pot you have, the better your tone.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

                              Originally posted by Chistopher View Post
                              As far as I'm concerned vintage 50s wiring makes no sense at all. You'd get the dark bassy sound from rolling back the volume that you get from the independent wiring and you get the interactivity of the 50s wiring.
                              That silly mixed up statement tells me that either you've never tried "50's tone, independent volumes" wiring, or you don't have a clue what it actually is...or both.
                              Originally Posted by IanBallard
                              Rule of thumb... the more pot you have, the better your tone.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: 50’s vs Modern wiring

                                Originally posted by Lewguitar View Post
                                Sure. My ES-335 is that kind of guitar. Like a Les Paul or SG. Two volumes, two tones.

                                But I prefer one volume, one tone guitars. All of my PRS guitars are one volume, one tone.

                                And my Teles are one volume, one tone.

                                And now that I think of it, both my Strats are set up that way too. One volume, one tone.

                                When I play my ES-335 I like to combine pickups and blend the two together with the two volume controls.

                                But I don't miss not being able to do that with my one volume, one tone guitars.
                                I totally get that. I like to blend neck and bridge pups with separate vol pots, but I also like the simplicity of just a master vol and tone control as well (I for sure don't like the Fender set up of master vol with separate tone pots for two of the pups and none for the third...that's just ridiculous to me and I would much rather prefer a master vol and a master tone control).

                                However, my favorite setup is two separate volumes (with 50's tone, independent volumes) and one master tone. I set up all of my custom builds this way including a tone bypass switch, unless a customer specifically requests something different, of course.
                                Originally Posted by IanBallard
                                Rule of thumb... the more pot you have, the better your tone.

                                Comment

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