Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

[Osensei]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

If you ignore the key signature then that does'nt make you sound progressive or conservative. Only the choice of notes that you play can do that. The problem is that much of the music you encounter will have chords in it that deviate from the key signature. Maj7 chords where there should be dom 7th. Minor chords where the key calls for a major. Dom 7ths were the key would otherwise indicate a maj7. Altered chords and the list goes on.

If you just try to home in on what key your in you'll likely miss something. That's when you'll really end up sounding progressive! If you explore each chord and apply melodic motifs against them in turn by using their related families of scales/modes then you're not likely to sound very progressive at all unless you try to. But you will be guaranteed that you won't get any unexpected curves thrown at you.

[Osensei]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Mixolydian is what happens when jazz snobs play the blues/

Just kidding... the minute I got the hang of it I've started incorporating all modes into my playing. The easiest way for me was to figure out how would they relate to the blues pentatonic patterns that I play.
Now I just play whatever I feel or think and in the middle I sometimes notice stuff like- hey that was a harmonic minor I just did... cool....

I've found that you can't come into a new style with preconceived notions. There are all sorts of stylistic, historical and traditional mechanisms at work that the theoretical book worm hasn't considered. Seek stylistic understanding first then apply the theory to explain what you have learned. This is where people who try to cross over to different stlyes get tripped up! They end up saying, "This should work!". Well it doesn't!

[Stratman]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Learn to play different versions of chords.

Minors, Major, 7th, 5th , 9th, 11th, 13th, augmented, etc...

Then work out the differences in the chords while playing different versions in the same box.

Then work out the notes that can be played as single notes and again in combination with other notes.

PRACTICE

Record yourself

PRACTICE more and learn from your mistakes.

Sometimes, those mistakes lead to learning new ways of playing

USE ALL YOUR FINGERS --- On Both Hands

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

If you ignore the key signature then that does'nt make you sound progressive or conservative. Only the choice of notes that you play can do that. The problem is that much of the music you encounter will have chords in it that deviate from the key signature. Maj7 chords where there should be dom 7th. Minor chords where the key calls for a major. Dom 7ths were the key would otherwise indicate a maj7. Altered chords and the list goes on.

If you just try to home in on what key your in you'll likely miss something. That's when you'll really end up sounding progressive! If you explore each chord and apply melodic motifs against them in turn by using their related families of scales/modes then you're not likely to sound very progressive at all unless you try to. But you will be guaranteed that you won't get any unexpected curves thrown at you.

Previously, you strongly encouraged the study of what has already been played in terms of learning and knowing the standard chord progressions of blues, jazz, pop. Chord progressions are established by the key, right? You been talking about ignoring the key in order to fully explore what can be played over a chord. But, it almost sounds like you may be suggesting that one forget the standard chord progressions as well. That's bit of an extrapolation. But, writing songs without a key signature sure suggests that kind of thought.

[Osensei]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

If I tell you to play a standard (not to compose) then the chords will have already been provided for you by the composer. True? But let's say the chords that the composer has given you don't all fit the key signature that the composer has indicated. Here is an extreme example but it presents some of the problems that you can come across even in much simpler progressions. I focused on this particular progression because it raises the issues rather quickly.

The tune is in the key of B:

|Bmaj7 D7| Gmaj7 Bb7| Ebmaj7| Am7 D7| Gmaj7 Bb7|

| Ebmaj7 Emaj7b5/F#| Eb7sus/B ...

The key signature that the composer has given you just got shot to hell! Was it because of something you did? No! But If I say take a solo then you have to deal with it! I suggest that you don't deal with it by trying to play everything in the key of B! LOL!

After the second beat of the first measure this tune has already changed to the key of G! After the sencond beat of the second measure it changed again to Eb. And the process goes on! Now let me ask are you still thinking in B? LOL! You can try telling the rest of the band that this song shouldn't exist because none of the chords are in B, but I doubt that they will listen!

By improvising on the chords and not the key signature you will better be able to keep up. If you play according to the key signature then you'll be playing sour notes as soon as you get past the second beat of the song. The idea is to be able to keep up with the chord changes. Songs often change keys from the original key singnature. By improvising on the chords you are guaranteed to be in the "actual correct key" reguardless of what you may have (erroneously) thought the right key was!

LOL! The first chord in a Bb Blues is in the key of Eb! LOL!

[Osensei]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Chord progressions are established by the key, right?

No! You are discounting modulation. Very seldom do you come across a progression that is wholey in a single key for long. Quite often from a compositional standpoint the whole purpose of the progression is to find a way to get to another key. Sometimes this is done methodically and other times it done abruptly. You think maybe that's why they call it a progression? Cuz it's supposed to go somewhere? If you are a player that's trying to perform then the key signature won't help you for long! You have to find other methods to keep up.

You been talking about ignoring the key in order to fully explore what can be played over a chord. But, it almost sounds like you may be suggesting that one forget the standard chord progressions as well. That's bit of an extrapolation. But, writing songs without a key signature sure suggests that kind of thought.

When you compose do what you want. When you play (standards) everything has already been laid out for you. When I speak of playing/exploring the chords my focus is mainly on improvisation against chords that the composer has already given you to play. Although, the same method can be great for your compositional skills if you come with a progression you like but can't think of a cool melody!

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

No! You are discounting modulation. Very seldom do you come across a progression that is wholey in a single key for long. Quite often from a compositional standpoint the whole purpose of the progression is to find a way to get to another key. Sometimes this is done methodically and other times it done abruptly. You think maybe that's why they call it a progression? Cuz it's supposed to go somewhere? If you are a player that's trying to perform then the key signature won't help you for long! You have to find other methods to keep up.

When you compose do what you want. When you play (standards) everything has already been laid out for you. When I speak of playing/exploring the chords my focus is mainly on improvisation against chords that the composer has already given you to play. Although, the same method can be great for your compositional skills if you come with a progression you like but think of a cool melody!

Modulation? Is modulation, Changing keys, a jazz concept? How commonly does that occur in rock, blues, and jazz. Songs that have a bridge, is that a modulation? Did the classical composers utilize modulation? I'm guessiing that most modern music uses a single key, because most popular music uses standard progression.

Now that I think about it a bit more, and realize I haven't been able to see the forest because of the trees, I have heard others say let the chord inform you about what to play.

BTW, I've started watching the Ken Burns Jazz documentary. A local video store has it. It's not hugely technical, but it does a great job of highlighting the cultural issues that drove the creation and development of blues and jazz as well as the artist that were it's greatest influences. I've been enjoying it. It's definitely worth the time to watch.

As a result, I'm thinking a study of Louis Armstrong and song great jazz clarinet stuff would be worthwhile. They have such a great vibe, feel, and phrasing.

[Osensei]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Yes, Classical music modulates. It's been decades since I analyzed any Mozart! They even had strict rules governing which keys they could modulate to! But if you listen closely to some Bach you can see where it almost can sound like Bebop at times! LOL!

Yes, pop music modulates all the time. Anytime you find a chord in a tune that doesn't match the key signature, it can be "interpreted" as a temporary modulation to another key. That's just one way of looking at it. It's true that most of the serious key changing goes on at the bridge. But you can still find key changes just about anywhere in pop music depending on which tune you're litening to.

If a tune is in C and you come across a D7 you can look at it from different perspectives. One person might say its a II7 chord instead of a IIm7. That concept assumes that modulation has not occured. People who would analyze the situation in that manner would say that they needed more evidence of a key change than just 1 out of place dom 7th chord. They would account for it by using accidentals and continue to conceptualize being in the original key.

Another person might say that the D7 in actually the dom 7th (V7) chord in the key of G. This concept opens up some interesting possibilities once you realize that for a brief moment all of the modes of G maj are available to you. If you're are taking a solo or trying to put together a melody against that D7 this concept can help generate ideas. Although, in my example the key of C and G are probably too closely related to knock somebody's socks off. But the more remotely the two keys are related, the more striking the effect!

Rock can be even worse than Jazz! Many rock jams play power chords based on simple major and minor triads. They often don't play 7ths. This means that a "composer" (as in song writer) can interpret any maj triad to be used as the V chord in a different key and just go there!

Many times you'll find that a composer has used a V chord as a bridge to get to another key. Jazz uses the II-V-I as a common vehicle to move between keys. Take Fmaj7 | Emin7 A7 | Dmaj7. From Fmaj to Dmaj just like that! Check this one out. F#7 | Bdim | G7. Thats from the key of Bmaj to Cmaj. The V7 (F#7) chord in Bmaj goes to the VII (Bdim) in C to the V7 chord in C (G7). And yes! There are blues progressions that are like this before you even ask! Every blues progression isn't Plain Jane! LOL!

[hareek]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

what is this "Frank Gambale DVD that gets such good reviews"??? I've been playing for 11 years and consider myself beginner when it comes to theory, but more advanced when it comes to playing. I'm always looking for good DVD's to learn more. Is this one worth checking out in my case?

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

what is this "Frank Gambale DVD that gets such good reviews"??? I've been playing for 11 years and consider myself beginner when it comes to theory, but more advanced when it comes to playing. I'm always looking for good DVD's to learn more. Is this one worth checking out in my case?

This Thread may help you decide

[hareek]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

This Thread may help you decide

interesting. sounds intimidating but I think I'm gonna get it. thanks a lot guys.

[noth]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

I never play anything that I don't hear in my head.

That's all I play: what I hear.

If I don't hear it, I don't play it.

Otherwise, it's my fingers doing the playing and not me.

I don't think of my fingers as being particularly soulful or creative...I just want them to do what I tell them to do and not "think" for themselves!

I hear so many guys whos fingers are just playing patterns...over and over.

Lew

I believe it's my favorite guitarist that said: "I never played a lick I couldn't sing in my head" - Leslie West.

Amen,
Noth

[Osensei]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

Ever wonder why some people can sing and other's can't. It's because some people have superb ears and others are totally tone deaf! Playing by ear is not for everyone! To really pull it off your ear has to range from good to exceptional. From what I can see, there are people with exceptional ears that can hear all sorts of cool licks no matter how complicated the music gets. People with merely good ears often end up hearing old washed up cliche' licks over very simple music. It's more of a limitation to them than a benefit! LOL!

It's sorta like saying every basketball player should dunk! Well, I'm sorry! I'm 5'8" so I think I'll ignore your advise and work on my jump shot! Thank you very much! LOL!

[Guitar Toad]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

How does one help the tone deaf guitar player?

[Rainmaker]

Re: Forget Modes - Advice That Set Me Free

There's ear training software out there which can make the the process simple and practical.

!