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What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

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  • What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

    I was wondering what makes vintage Fenders so desireable. I was talking with a guy much like gearjoneser (he can go on and on about stories of when he was working with pro musicians in CA). This guy seems to know his stuff.

    He told one of the main things that make the guitar is the finish. He told me that nitrocellulose (I think that's the name/spelling) was stopped being made quite a while ago and that allows the alder on the vintage strats to really ring. He also told me that things like the plastic type finishes and the sticky type finishes on necks can rob a guitar of approximately 40% of the guitars tonal frequency and clarity. Apparently, from what he's telling me Fender's custom shop used to still offer those finishes, except now they use an almost acrylic based version that doesn't sound as good as the original.

    He's an amazing musician, a great guy to talk shop with, and I'm inclined to believe every word he says. Any opinions?
    Originally posted by kevlar3000
    I learned a long time ago that the only thing that mattered regarding tone was what my ears thought.
    Originally posted by Zerberus
    Better is often the enemy of good
    Originally posted by ginormous
    Covers feed the body, originals feed the soul.

  • #2
    Re: What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

    I'm not sure you can put a percetnt value of tone loss, but it makes a good story.

    Gibson still shoots their guitars with nitro as does Heritage and many other smaller makers. With the mass production of most Fenders, and I'm guessing the environmental laws in CA, they had to go away from nitro and just shoot poly.

    The word out there is that nitro allows the wood to breathe. Doesn't trap the wood if that makes sense.

    For me, it's all about the smell. Nitro just smells like a guitar is supposed to.


    www.CelticAmplifiers.com

    "You can't save everybody, everybody don't wanna be saved."

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    • #3
      Re: What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

      So if I sand off/down the finish on my Tele, it'll sound better?

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      • #4
        Re: What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

        Tom, I'm kinda wondering the same thing.

        Scott, actually he did mention something about nitro being illegal in CA (not the most environmentally friendly I guess). I think you're probably very right about that.

        I thought it was interesting nonetheless. I'm sure the aged wood and pickups wouldn't hurt for making those vintage guitars stand out either
        Originally posted by kevlar3000
        I learned a long time ago that the only thing that mattered regarding tone was what my ears thought.
        Originally posted by Zerberus
        Better is often the enemy of good
        Originally posted by ginormous
        Covers feed the body, originals feed the soul.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

          I tend to agree with what he says. Also, vintage saddles may not be everyone's favorite, but they do create that sound that is 'the strat sound.' I'm starting to really favor guitars with a very thin finish, or even no finish, for the same reasons that guy pointed out. Another point is that the smaller vintage frets allow more contact between the wood and the string, giving vintage strats a more woody neck sound. Personally, I've always preferred medium jumbo frets, since it facilitates better bends, but lately have found the fretwire that's between vintage and medium jumbo to be my favorite. It's the size that's on Grosh guitars. Another point that's arguable is the tuning pegs. Some people prefer high mass tuners like Sperzels thinking it adds sustain, but I'm convinced that vintage tuners, namely Kluson, allow the neck to resonate better, thus giving the guitar a more 'alive' tone. Also, aged or properly dried body wood dramatically rings better than budget guitars with uncured wood.
          These are some of the points I've noticed after owning a good handfull of strats.
          Originally posted by Boogie Bill
          I've got 60 guitars...but 49 trumpets is just...INSANITY! WTF!

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          • #6
            Re: What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

            IMHO, I think the celluloe vs. poly finish has more merit than we give credit. When shopping of quality accoustics, people are quick to advise against laminated top guitars. The mass produced finishes of electric guitrs today is not far from this elementary theory. The poly finish prohibits the wood from aging and developing character. Sure, a mistreated cellulose guitar will sound like crap as it ages. But, a pampered poly finish guitar will still be a pampered poly finish guitar. With no room to mature, you have essentially purchased a laminated electric guitar. My 1970 Gibson had been fairly taken care of, so it has a dry quality to it. However, it sounds so much better than it did just 14 years ago when I inherited it. Now that I have introduced proper moisture levels to the guitar, it seems to be slowly reviving its natural ability to make beautiful tones.

            I doubt my 2003 American Deluxe Strat will sound much different in 14 years.....
            ~ Life In Every Breath~

            www.gordonsgroovyguitars.com

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            • #7
              Re: What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

              Very Valid points, GJ. I'm mainly a Les Paul guy from way back, and I'm in no way a Strat expert, but I have a '64 Strat that I dearly love. I also have an '84, a few from the '90's, and a newer Highway 1. Just trusting my ears and my hands, the '64 and the Highway 1 are my favorites. The lighter finish and vintage style bridge on the Highway 1 Blow the '84 and the American Standards away !!!!! I also agree with you 100% on the Kluson tuners.
              Only The Strong Survive











              ________________________
              *Spina Pedal Mods Endorsee*

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              • #8
                Re: What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

                Wonder what Stradivari finished his instruments with. They seem to have aged well.

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                • #9
                  Re: What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

                  Yeah 59Paul, the Klusons seem to be where it's at with 'neck tone'. The guys that can't keep them in tune are the one's that don't have the intonation dialed in. One of the main things Ted McCarty did with the PRS guitars was to revert back to Kluson type tuners and steeper headstock angle. He was the President of Gibson throughout their glory days. He's no dummy, and his ideas have been followed closely by ALL guitar companies. The guitars I own that I gravitate toward are always the one's with thin finish or satin oil finishes. Having a thick finish that seals off the wood just kills the tone of the wood. It's something I didn't used to pay attention to, but do now.
                  Originally posted by Boogie Bill
                  I've got 60 guitars...but 49 trumpets is just...INSANITY! WTF!

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                  • #10
                    Re: What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

                    GJ, I hear ya, Bro. Couldn't agree more......
                    Last edited by 59paul; 06-22-2004, 12:31 AM.
                    Only The Strong Survive











                    ________________________
                    *Spina Pedal Mods Endorsee*

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                    • #11
                      Re: What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

                      Originally posted by Gearjoneser
                      I Also, aged or properly dried body wood dramatically rings better than budget guitars with uncured wood.
                      These are some of the points I've noticed after owning a good handfull of strats.
                      I've notice that too ! A Old piece of wood that's dried out Just seem to
                      resonate a certain way ? I don't know the Physices of it. But it seems
                      to lose it's density and the notes ring out acousticly better? That may
                      be where the Laqucer theory has creedance? Take 2 guitars paint one
                      in Nitro the other in Poly, I honestly can't hear a differance. BUT !
                      30 years from now I'd bet the Nitro would sound better?
                      http://www.soundclick.com/whirlwindbluesrevue

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                      • #12
                        Re: What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

                        KMC, I'll bet you're Right !!!! ........
                        Only The Strong Survive











                        ________________________
                        *Spina Pedal Mods Endorsee*

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                        • #13
                          Re: What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

                          Having owned Gibsons and Fenders from the 50s and 60s, I think it comes down to the quality of the wood, construction, hardware, and pickups. Some of my vintage pieces were great guitars and some were not. I think some of the best guitars ever made are being made today by people like David McNaught, Ron Thorn, Driskil, Tom Anderson, and PRS.

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                          • #14
                            Re: What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

                            Originally posted by Jonny R
                            Wonder what Stradivari finished his instruments with. They seem to have aged well.
                            If you want to have fun, you can start an endless debate on this subject over at the Musical Instrument Makers Forum. Seems no one really knows exactly what Stradavarius used - french polish (hand rubbed shellac with pumice to fill the grain) is part of the equation, but there was some form of oil based varnish too IIRC. The problem is that over the centuries, the "experts" think that some of the finish gradually evaportated!

                            I can tell you that if you put a traditional violin finish on an electric guitar and handled it the way most of us do, it would look battered and bruised PDQ It's not waterproof, let alone alcohol proof - not that I would ever let an alcoholic beverage get near my guitars!!!

                            Thin and breathable seem to be the best qualities for a finish tone-wise, but there's a tradeoff with durability. Personally, I'm not sure how much it matters for a solid body electric, but as soon as you add sound chambers I'm sure the finish starts to make a bigger difference.

                            Chip
                            Heritage 535 Special, Warmoth frankenstrat, MIM Strat, & Taylor 314C(no E)
                            Amp Builds: Tweed Princeton (5F2-A) variation, 2 BF Princeton Reverb clones, & Super Reverb clone
                            Sometimes use a Blues Jr., Tech 21 Trademark 10 & Power Engine 60
                            SPG modded DS-1, TS-7 & CryBaby; Visual Sounds Rte. 66 & H2O; Guyatone Tremolo
                            SD pickups: SSL-2, APS-2, tapped Quarter Pound, Custom 5 & Antiquity humbuckers

                            "Conan! What are the best things in life?"
                            "Girls, guitars, guns and cars!"

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                            • #15
                              Re: What makes vintage Fenders sound so good?

                              I just got a guitar that 'just has it' in every way. It's a California Custom Schecter Traditional Tele, which was handmade by the early Schecter Custom Shop. It's very similar to a vintage Fender, but has Am Std type saddles and tapped/hot Tele pickups.
                              It's oil finished Southern Swamp Ash with unfinished hard rock maple neck/rosewood. It also has Kluson tuners on it. I can't describe it, but the wood resonates better than almost any tele I've picked up. I handed it to an experienced vintage Tele player, and the first thing he said was "wow, this thing sounds like an old one" before he even plugged it in. I guess that tells you why the old ones were superior. Dry resonant wood, quality neck wood, vintage tuners, and tight construction.
                              Originally posted by Boogie Bill
                              I've got 60 guitars...but 49 trumpets is just...INSANITY! WTF!

                              Comment

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