Has modelling "topped out"?

[ParaGuitarMedic]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Now that I think of it, isn't "Have tube amps topped out?" a more valid question?

What have companies done that's really new in that arena?

An interesting question, and certainly one that is forgotten since Tube Amps are supposedly the way. (BTW- Before I get crucified, I am a tube guy through and though)

I don't think modeling had topped out. And I'm sure that the "next big thing" will come along sooner than anyone thinks. I mean, the technology used in those Variax guitars is incredible. It can only get better. I don't, however, think that tube amps will ever go away in our lifetime. There is just too many of them out there and too many of us love them. JB FROM HELL made a great point: Who would have thought records would be around this long?

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Now that I think of it, isn't "Have tube amps topped out?" a more valid question?

What have companies done that's really new in that arena?

"Something new" isn't what grabs people's attention. Guys want vintage Marshalls, not a new one. They want clones of Fender's revolutionary designs from 40 years ago. They don't want them to do something revolutionary now.

Also, I believe most guitarists are full of sh1t, and would fail a double-blind listening test between tubes and Line 6's top of the line product. Now, before you tell me why I'm wrong, and that you'd never fail that test, of course you are the exception

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

But aren't you using a tube poweramp with your GT-8?

Yeah, but there is a marked difference between the sound quality of the -6 and the -8 even when running through the 50:50.

In fact, lately I've been running the -8 through a pair of SWR California Blondes with the tweeters switched off (for smaller jazz gigs) and it still sounds fab. It's not as authoritative as when running through the Mesa, but the basic tone and texture is there.

[firebirdV]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I don't hink so. With all of the SS technology out there (especially in high fi stereo systems), I'd expect there to be some new modelling equipment in the near future. It may take a few years, but I'm sure something new will pop up.

[Young Angus]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I'm going to go off on a tangent here and ask why does any company need to do anything new??? I'm sure we could all name an amp that we would buy if we had the money and it would be pretty damn satisfying on a lot of levels...it would just be expensive that's all. Most of the stuff we all dig heaps is old anyway, yet amp companies are just trying to come up with new crap to hype more people into spending more money on their products.

I don't think anyone here would actually care about "new" technology all that much anyway deep down...I mean what do you want your amp to do that would be "new" technology? ...perhaps you'd like it to sense what you want to play by tapping into your brainwaves and you wouldn't even have to play it yourself, you could just think it

Sure there needs to be good stuff at cheap prices so as to make quality things available to all people, but do we really want to kill the need or desire to own a top notch piece of gear like a Bogner? Imagine how pissed off Mr. Bogner would be if someone came up with a way to get every possible bit of tone and dynamics that sounded and felt exactly like one of his amps...but for the price of a Gorilla amp??? Then Mr. Bogner would go broke!

I think that if anything would be a good development in the amp world, it would be that manufacturers focused more on QUALITY rather than QUANTITY. Go back to old school ways of doing things even though they might not be the cheapest route to take...and maybe even figure out how to make it cheaper! I don't think there is one among us who wouldn't appreciate that. If everyone focused more on the un-comprimised quality of their products (ahem...GIBSON!) then this world would be a far better place...rather than focusing on how to put more bells and whistles on everything!

Just my daily rant

[firebirdV]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I'm going to go off on a tangent here and ask why does any company need to do anything new??? I'm sure we could all name an amp that we would buy if we had the money and it would be pretty damn satisfying on a lot of levels...it would just be expensive that's all. Most of the stuff we all dig heaps is old anyway, yet amp companies are just trying to come up with new crap to hype more people into spending more money on their products.

I don't think anyone here would actually care about "new" technology all that much anyway deep down...I mean what do you want your amp to do that would be "new" technology? ...perhaps you'd like it to sense what you want to play by tapping into your brainwaves and you wouldn't even have to play it yourself, you could just think it

Sure there needs to be good stuff at cheap prices so as to make quality things available to all people, but do we really want to kill the need or desire to own a top notch piece of gear like a Bogner? Imagine how pissed off Mr. Bogner would be if someone came up with a way to get every possible bit of tone and dynamics that sounded and felt exactly like one of his amps...but for the price of a Gorilla amp??? Then Mr. Bogner would go broke!

I think that if anything would be a good development in the amp world, it would be that manufacturers focused more on QUALITY rather than QUANTITY. Go back to old school ways of doing things even though they might not be the cheapest route to take...and maybe even figure out how to make it cheaper! I don't think there is one among us who wouldn't appreciate that. If everyone focused more on the un-comprimised quality of their products (ahem...GIBSON!) then this world would be a far better place...rather than focusing on how to put more bells and whistles on everything!

Just my daily rant

Well it's rather difficult to play a 5e3 in my dorm room...

EDIT
(not that I actually have a 5e3 now, for a very specific reason)

[Mephis]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Also, I believe most guitarists are full of sh1t, and would fail a double-blind listening test between tubes and Line 6's top of the line product. Now, before you tell me why I'm wrong, and that you'd never fail that test, of course you are the exception

I'm sure that's why van halen used a peavey rage 258.

[Gearjoneser]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I agree with JB from Hell and Mincer. It may be topped out for now, but only because they're still recouping from the R&D money they've spent thus far.

As far as I'm concerned, the computer technology is good enough to create great preamp tones and FX. I mean....how much better does it need to be than a POD Pro XT? Where they still fall short is in touch responsive power sections.

I saw Todd Mohr from Big Head Todd and the Monsters a few years ago, and he had the most sophisticated modeling rig I've ever seen. Onstage, he had a rack with a laptop sitting on top that was running L6 Amp Farm. In the rack the Amp Farm was fed into a $2000 Avalon 737 Tube Mic Pre, tube power amps, out to speaker cabs. He was doing a sophisticated version of what modeling amps COULD be in a compact unit.

In my opinion, the only way to make a modeler sound incredible and have great touch sensitivity is to focus on power amp design. That's where Vox has taken the lead, but not far enough. If I were an engineer for Line 6, I wouldn't spend another dime on preamps and FX. I'd still offer software upgrades, but my sole focus would be on power amps, perfectly suited for use with POD Pro units. The Atomic amps were a great idea for the POD beans, but they need rackmounted modeler power amps now. I think I'd want to make SS MOSFET power amps, that are fed by a complex 12AX7 stage....better than Vox has done. Maybe use 4 12AX7's, like a mini 100W amp, being fed into a 400W SS section.

I thought by now Vox would have an equivalent to the POD Pro, and maybe soon they will?? Both Vox and L6 need to focus their attention on power amp design, and I think modeling will reach a new plateau.

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

http://www.randallamplifiers.com/pro.../mts/index.asp

I have a pretty old Duncan Convertible 60 sitting in my bedroom next to my Bassman.

[Robert Delahunt]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I agree with JB from Hell and Mincer. It may be topped out for now, but only because they're still recouping from the R&D money they've spent thus far.

As far as I'm concerned, the computer technology is good enough to create great preamp tones and FX. I mean....how much better does it need to be than a POD Pro XT? Where they still fall short is in touch responsive power sections.

I saw Todd Mohr from Big Head Todd and the Monsters a few years ago, and he had the most sophisticated modeling rig I've ever seen. Onstage, he had a rack with a laptop sitting on top that was running L6 Amp Farm. In the rack the Amp Farm was fed into a $2000 Avalon 737 Tube Mic Pre, tube power amps, out to speaker cabs. He was doing a sophisticated version of what modeling amps COULD be in a compact unit.

In my opinion, the only way to make a modeler sound incredible and have great touch sensitivity is to focus on power amp design. That's where Vox has taken the lead, but not far enough. If I were an engineer for Line 6, I wouldn't spend another dime on preamps and FX. I'd still offer software upgrades, but my sole focus would be on power amps, perfectly suited for use with POD Pro units. I think I'd want to make SS MOSFET power amps, that are fed by a complex 12AX7 stage....better than Vox has done. Maybe use 4 12AX7's, like a mini 100W amp, being fed into a 400W SS section.

I thought by now Vox would have an equivalent to the POD Pro, and maybe soon they will?? Both Vox and L6 need to focus they're attention on power amp design, and I think modeling will reach a new plateau.

Still, with that much money, you can afford a high end line of Chieftan amps, which are going to sound more organic.

I dunno, amp modelling never did it for me because I like the response and feeling of actually playing through an amp. Besides, how are they supposed to simulate string-fade-into-feedback?

[Young Angus]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Well it's rather difficult to play a 5e3 in my dorm room...

EDIT
(not that I actually have a 5e3 now, for a very specific reason)

Well that's exactly what I'm getting at! Build something real like a 5e3...but also build a high quality transparent post-power-section master volume into it like the ones all the top modders do to Marshalls. Things like that would get guitarists drooling everywhere!

[Mincer]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

i use a GT-Pro into a SS amp, but again, Im not really going for classic sounds at all...on the other hand, Ive tried to get good classic sounds out of a Peavey Valve King, but the SS Bandit does a much better job.

I am happy I have a lot of choices though. It really depends on what kind of guitarist you are.

[firebirdV]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

Well that's exactly what I'm getting at! Build something real like a 5e3...but also build a high quality transparent post-power-section master volume into it like the ones all the top modders do to Marshalls. Things like that would get guitarists drooling everywhere!

But I think I would take a modeller for the volumes I'm speaking about over the modded 5e3.

[Mephis]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I have a pretty old Duncan Convertible 60 sitting in my bedroom next to my Bassman.

You may have me there, but I must ask...

Unless tube amps start sounding miserable some day, why would anyone try to innovate on their design? Do you honestly believe it's possible for the basic design to be altered to sound THAT much better?

[Benjy_26]

Re: Has modelling "topped out"?

I'm going to go off on a tangent here and ask why does any company need to do anything new??? I'm sure we could all name an amp that we would buy if we had the money and it would be pretty damn satisfying on a lot of levels...it would just be expensive that's all. Most of the stuff we all dig heaps is old anyway, yet amp companies are just trying to come up with new crap to hype more people into spending more money on their products.

I don't think anyone here would actually care about "new" technology all that much anyway deep down...I mean what do you want your amp to do that would be "new" technology? ...

Maybe I'm being fascetious, but to get every tone that I use in a typical 4 hour gig, I'd need to bring 9 amps and a crap load of pedals if it weren't for modelling. Could I get by without nailing all the tones in my head? Probably so, but why compromise on anything if I don't have to?