12 string/accoustic question..

BloodRose

Professional Scapegoat
Yeah, another thread from me on this.. Im sorry, but Im really struggling with this issue..
Heres the deal... Recently got a Tak 12 string. Like it. Not loving it at this point. Had alot of dead spots and get alot of dead notes when I play barre chords up the neck. I KNOW alot of this is my weak hands and poor technique. Checked things out, and board was flat and was getting fret outs. Truss adjust made HUGE improvement. Played some other brands and they played easier and better. But learned from a responder in one of my other posts, one of the other brands had a shorter scale too.

Ive considered returning it. Seller agreed. HOWEVER, the other 2 12s Id consider replacing it with are twice as much money. (this one normally cost about the same, but I got a great deal) I dont have the extra money at this time, so Im trying to look at EVERY ANGLE before I make a final decision.
Here is why Im posting. I need your input.

It sounds good and plays fine (albeit needing a firm grip) for all the cowboy chords and such. The string tension is stiffer than the cheapest Martin, but thats the longer scale I suppose. The action is alittle higher then the other 2 Id consider from mid neck to the end. When I play barre chords from anywhere higher than the fifth fret, I have to have my index positioned perfectly and Ive got to squeeze for dear life to get all the notes to ring cleanly. Definately No sloppy playing. So, this is probably me. Am I expecting too much? I definately want to improve my technique, and maybe this would force me to do so. I could see this if it was just positioning, but the fact I have to squeeze so hard, is uncomfortable and unnatural. For that and the high string height up the neck, someone suggested in my prev thread to have the saddle shaved down . Can that be done on a guitar where the pickup is/or is in the saddle?

Could it just need maybe alittle more relief ? It made a world of difference the first time I adjusted it.
And my biggest question as Ive never been a real accoustic guy, let alone a 12 string, is it even normal to spend much time playing that far up the neck? In my mind, Im thinking I should be able to play it like an electric (I know obviously that it wont play as easily, being accoustic and 12 strings) but I mean obviously it isnt really meant for 2 octave solos and such. I mean maybe my whole approach is wrong and Im expecting too much? Again, Ive never been real big on accoustic, so I may just be reading WAY to much into it. (I OFTEN do this) As I said, cowboy chords and barre chords up to frets 3-5 go ok. Any further up, I have to use the grip of death. And one last point, (this is why I say I may be expecting too much) I had a pastor once that was an amazing player and he only had one guitar. He had one of those huge bodied Guild 12 strings. (j30?) Anyhow, he could tear up on that guitar like Ive seen guys do on electrics..

I appreciate whomever has taken time to read this and any input. Im sorry if Im just being whack. I want to love the guitar, and really dont have the extra money to buy one of the other 2. But if it is something I should return (if its not all me) then I need to do so soon.

Thank you
 
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Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

Firstly see if the guitar is OK take a capo and place it on every fret possible and play every string making sure there are no buzzing muting etc going on, if the guitar is OK then unfortunately it's you, but don't despair you just need to practice a little more till you can get used to the guitar.

I'm gonna assume you can handle all the open chords.

Play every note forwards and backwards arpeggio style of the following barre chords (all on the A string) C major 3rd fret, D minor 5th Fret, E minor 7th fret, F major 8th fret,G major 10th fret,A minor 12th fret ( & if you can manage the following , B dim 14th fret & C major 15th I only added these for completion of the scale don't stress if you can't manage these last 2)
Then play it all again descending. making sure all notes sound clear, if it begins to hurt too much quit the exercise & see if you can get any further the day after

After a week or so this will aclimatise you to the new string spacing & strengthen your left hand & you'll find the guitar easier to play.
In case you haven't figured it out it's all the chords in C up & down the A string

when that exercise is a breeze play all the chords in G using barre chords with the root on the E string this is much tougher, I have small hands & can only manage this if I've been practicing it for a few days.

Of course I'm going to sound like a broken record, but tune it to D & relearn the chords or use a capo it makes life easier.

You can go down the route of lowering the bridge & nut, but if you take too much away when you dig in to the guitar it will buzz, it's a balancing act it will be easier to play but at the cost of a little (or lot) of the guitars dynamics.

See how you get on with the 1st exercise & then decide if you want to alter the action
 
Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

Let's get some data.

-Relief measurement @ 7th fret with capo at 1st fret & fretted where the neck meets the body.
-String height @ 12th fret for Low E and High E.
-String height @ 1st fret for Low E and High E.

This will determine if the guitar is close in terms of setup. Personally, I want to love every guitar I own. If you can't get it to a point that you love to pick it up, I'd plan to save until I could buy one of the other guitars I'd love.
 
Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

For pleasure, get a Taylor. For sound, get a Martin. For the pocketbook, don't get either. Depends what is most important and controlling for you. My 12 strings are about 30 years old now. An investment that will literally last you a lifetime. Everyone thinks of this investment differently so my view of giving it all you have won't necessarily be your view, but since you asked - I'd recommend you put everything you possibly can into the guitar you will play for the rest of your life. If you don't, it will likely not be one you enjoy as much as you can...and you probabably won't play it the rest of your life....not the best way to spend money. Good luck!
 
Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

For pleasure, get a Taylor. For sound, get a Martin. For the pocketbook, don't get either. Depends what is most important and controlling for you. My 12 strings are about 30 years old now. An investment that will literally last you a lifetime. Everyone thinks of this investment differently so my view of giving it all you have won't necessarily be your view, but since you asked - I'd recommend you put everything you possibly can into the guitar you will play for the rest of your life. If you don't, it will likely not be one you enjoy as much as you can...and you probabably won't play it the rest of your life....not the best way to spend money. Good luck!

Yup can't disagree with this in the slightest, I have 2 taylors a 6 & a 12 I waited till the 12 appeared on the used market, but I guess it's to late for the OP,
Wish I could have all the money back from the amps I've owned & sold/traded at a loss, I could probably have a mesa & a matchless with the cash I've wasted.

O.P: Out of interest which model takamine did you go for, generally every takamine I'v played have been excellent guitars
 
Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

I think what you are really wanting is the Taylor.

My suggestion would be to return the Tak and save up for the Taylor–it will play MUCH better than the Tak and will most likely sound better as well.

The Taylors I've owned never had dead spots and were the best playing acoustic guitars–love their necks (I no longer play Taylors but I think they are a great guitar.)
 
Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

Let's get some data.

-Relief measurement @ 7th fret with capo at 1st fret & fretted where the neck meets the body.
-String height @ 12th fret for Low E and High E.
-String height @ 1st fret for Low E and High E.

This will determine if the guitar is close in terms of setup. Personally, I want to love every guitar I own. If you can't get it to a point that you love to pick it up, I'd plan to save until I could buy one of the other guitars I'd love.

ok, this may have solved my issue... Here is what I found, pls adv if Im correct..

Just to answer your questions.. 12th fret low E is 3/16ths. high E 2/16ths. However when I capo first fret and press at the last, I have a tiny bit of light under the low E. And it rings ok. That is the string i was going by when I adjusted the truss. When I first got the guitar they were all fretting out. with capo on fret one and pressing the strings at last fret, if I try to strum any other strings they are hitting the frets.. need more relief??

To the other posters.. Yes, I really do want the Taylor. I just cant spend the money right now. and as far as saving. will be a long time. Again, I wouldnt have gotten a 12 at all if this wouldnt have been on sale at a great deal. If I get this resolved by setting the action, Ill keep it and later, when I can get the taylor, give it to my daughter. If its not doable, then.. again its a Tak.. should be ok.. Unless I got a turd. But I have a gut feeling its fixable. we'll see.

For whom asked, the model is GJ72ce-12
 
Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

:headbang: dialed in alittle more relief and can now play barre chords with no deadness!! YEAH!!! PFDarkside, thanks for aiming me back at the nuts n bolts of things!! Yes, I still want a Taylor and will save up and get one if I continue to actively play this 12 string. And as I said, when that happens, Ill give this to my daughter or sell it. Due to the cost (normally these run close to the $600) I expected that it would be pretty decent and for what I actually paid, I didnt expect a Taylor. AND with it being just a bit more challenging to play, I hoped it would help me develop finger strength and such. But the dead spots were not acceptable. Im going to see how it is after some settle in time. And then decide from there. I have it a half step down right now too. So, better.. we will see tomm
 
Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

Glad to hear you were able to dial it in! Hopefully it will stay dialed in. lol Enjoy!
 
Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

For that and the high string height up the neck, someone suggested in my prev thread to have the saddle shaved down . Can that be done on a guitar where the pickup is/or is in the saddle?

Since no one answered this, I figured I'd chime in for you. You can shave the saddle down if need be since the transducer is actually under the saddle and may be under the bridge itself.
 
Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

Since no one answered this, I figured I'd chime in for you. You can shave the saddle down if need be since the transducer is actually under the saddle and may be under the bridge itself.

Yes, thank you for covering that! I assume you mean shave it down from the top?? if I look in the bridge, I can see silver that appears to attached to the bottom of the saddles, or maybe molded into the bottom of the saddles.
 
Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

Great to hear! :)

Question, did you mean 3/32"? With 3/16" I could also see why you would be having issues. ;)
 
Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

Great to hear! :)

Question, did you mean 3/32"? With 3/16" I could also see why you would be having issues. ;)

With the capo on one, pressing at last fret, the distance between the fret and string on low E was 3/16ths. Tween fret and high e was 2/16ths. I have only one ruler that the measurement starts at the tip instead of having a space of about a 16th of an inch before the mark. And unfortunately, that ruler doesnt have 32nd increments..

Did that answer? I may see about sanding down the bridge some tho..
 
Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

Yes, thank you for covering that! I assume you mean shave it down from the top?? if I look in the bridge, I can see silver that appears to attached to the bottom of the saddles, or maybe molded into the bottom of the saddles.

Unfortunately that won't work. You'd need to very carefully remove the saddle from the bridge and sand the bottom. As always, take it to a tech if you're not comfortable working on that. I've been meaning to have the saddle & nut replaced on my Guild DV-6 for a while, but it plays well enough and there are just too many higher-priority items for my budget.
 
Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

Oh, someone always has to wiz in my cheerios.... I figured as much, was just hoping
 
Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

I had a tak eg5223 12 & it was a fine guitar, the nut was a little wide perhaps but it played well enough.
I always wanted a taylor 12 too & managed to pick one up 2nd hand about 5 years ago.
 
Re: 12 string/accoustic question..

Shut up and play it for a few more months.

Dude, if I didnt know you....... It WAS more than just me wimping out. The strings were fretting out.. Ive done two truss adjust on it and have it ringing pretty true now.. I was just wanting to make sure it was adjustable so I could return it if it wasnt. As I said, Ive got it ringing ok now. I will say that in order to get it there, Ive had to set it with more relief than it should have to have.. It isnt perfect, and if Id paid full price, it would be going back.. With what I paid, alil trade off is fair.
 
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