210 vs 212 vs 115

[loudriver23]

Okay,
I'm researching cabs, and was wondering, why do I need to stick with the 212 cab common with Bandmasters/bassmans.
What would I expect with going with a 210 cab, and even more interesting, a 115 cabinet?
I know Fender made a Vibroverb, with a 15 inch speaker, what were some of the desirable traits of that setup?

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: 210 vs 212 vs 115

These sizes are often used by bass amps. The advantage of a 10" is the lower mass, meaning the speaker cone responds quicker. This helps eliminate, or reduce, low end flubbiness. A ten-inch doesn't reproduce the fundimental bass tones as well, putting more emphasis on the harmonics. A 15" speaker is just bigger, it offers a bigger sound and it produces a strong bass fundimental, although it will not be as tight.

For guitar a single 15" offers 15% greater cone area than a single 12". On the other hand, a 2-12" offers 30% more cone area, and usually a larger effective enclosure volume for about the same outside size of the enclosure, compared to a single 15".

I'd expect a simlar relationship between a 2-10 and a 1-12, but the 12" will have a stronger fundimental for guitar, and it can be tight enough. The 12" has just proven more or less ideal for the typical guitar frequencies over the years.

 

[loudriver23]

Re: 210 vs 212 vs 115

Thanks LPB,
That does make sense, I figured there was a reason 99% of all guitar amps used 12" speakers.
I guess, I'm just trying to keep the cabinet size itself a bit smaller as I don't really have the room for a 212 currently. Perhaps researching some 112 cab options might be in order.

 

[loudriver23]

Re: 210 vs 212 vs 115

Next question is, would I being myself and the bassman a disservice by going with a 112 instead of the 212?

 

[jeremy]

Re: 210 vs 212 vs 115

two 10" can be a very cool combo if you match the right 10's. ted webers 10a150t is one of the best 10's ive ever heard.

ive never heard a 15" guitar cab/speaker that i really liked. some sound ok but nothing that i would use.

i dont think there is anything wrong with using a 1x12 for the bassman as long as you like the sound.

 

[Fresh_Start]

Re: 210 vs 212 vs 115

99% may be a bit high. Take a look at the Fender Field Guide:
http://www.thevintagesound.com/ffg/
Brown Bandmaster, Super Reverbs, Tremolux Reverbs, etc. all had 2, 4, or in one case 3 10" speakers. I love a Tweed Champ with an alnico 10" or a Princeton Reverb with a ceramic 10.

What amp are you going to use the cab with, what kind of music do you play, and how much volume and bass do you need?

I know of one boutique amp builder who's using a 10" together with a 15".

Oh, and are you building an open-backed or closed-back cab? Makes a huge difference.

HTH

Chip

 

[loudriver23]

Re: 210 vs 212 vs 115

I just purchased a SF bassman that I plan on modding as close to BF specs as possible. As for the kind of music I play, I'm pretty much all over the place, except for high gain stuff. I never really have a need to use that much distortion. I need a pristine clean tone for jazzy stuff, that nice OD bluesy tone for blues, lead, and chord work, and a bit more gain for lead work or for certain heavier passages.
The heaviest I would probably need would be some ZZ top, ACDC, Pink Floyd etc.
I don't need RATM, or Tool levels of gain by any means.

The current front runner in the cab search is a 212 Avatar closed back cab loaded with the Vintage 30's.

 

[ES350]

Re: 210 vs 212 vs 115

I don't know...I never cared for V30's with Fender amps, either open or closed back. I have two sets here and I try them every once in a while. Out they come...my .00001 cents worth.

 

[loudriver23]

Re: 210 vs 212 vs 115

I don't know...I never cared for V30's with Fender amps, either open or closed back. I have two sets here and I try them every once in a while. Out they come...my .00001 cents worth.

If they come out, what goes in?

 

[PFDarkside]

Re: 210 vs 212 vs 115

My buddy had a SF Bassman with the 2x15" cab. Cool thing was, it worked great for bass or guitar. Very "vintage" sounding type bass (no modern 10" Hartke tones ) and when I boosted a LP through it... Dear Lord was that fun. Now I will tell you I was in HS so I hadn't tried many speaker/cab combinations, but it was great for what we played (classic rock style heavily influenced by Floyd, Zeppelin and GnR)

Regarding 10 vs 12, there are great sounding 10's, but for that authoritative "rock" sound, 12" speakers just seem to work well. I think matching speaker configuration to the amp power tends to work as well. If you look at the vintage line up of Fender amps, you can see how they progressed from a 6 to an 8 to 10, 2 10's, 1 12, 3 10's and 2 12's, etc...

Which Bassman is it?

 

[loudriver23]

Re: 210 vs 212 vs 115

It's a SF 69 I believe, i'm still running some numbers. I am planning on having the BF mods done as soon as I can afford it.

 

[Antihero]

Re: 210 vs 212 vs 115

IMO 15s sound great for anything thats not high gain, but most people make the assumtion that if you hook up a 15" cab to any guitar amp its gonna be very bassy and thats not true. There are many bright sounding 15s.

Having said that i mostly use 12s.

 

[Lake Placid Blues]

Re: 210 vs 212 vs 115

15" are used a fair bit for pedal steel.

4-10's are used in the tweed Bassman and the Super Reverb, both classic open back amps for blues.

I'm going to build another 1-12" that will fit a small box head myself. It will be a good alternative to the 2x12, for those situations where the 2x12, and certainly the usually prefered 4x12, might be too big-figuratively and literally.

I think that the key to a great sounding 1x12 is not to get too stingy on the size, and end up making a little square cabinet. To fit a small box head, it needs to be about 22" wide, and checking out some of these larger, rectangular shaped, 1x12 cabinets, they do sound better and less boxy than a small square 1x12 cab, almost as good as a 2x12. I'm going to experiment with closed back, opened back and semi closed back.

I have played in bands were the bass player used BF or SF Bassmann heads with the original Fender cabs. The first guy's cab had two 15" and it was a pretty good bass amp. The other guy's cab turned out to have 4-12" speakers. They were the old Emi built "Fender Special Design" 12" speakers. It was not a great cab for bass, but I had a lot of fun with it cranking a strat through it on occasion.

I had a 50 Watt Bassman head years ago, that I would run through a 1x12 modeled on the Marshall 1912 combo extension cab at times out of convienence. It didn't sound bad at all.

 

[Fresh_Start]

Re: 210 vs 212 vs 115

LPB - you might want to check out the 1x12" cab design over on AX84.com. That's the first cab I'll build... if I ever get to it.

Chip

 

[James Rock]

Re: 210 vs 212 vs 115

IMO 15s sound great for anything thats not high gain, but most people make the assumtion that if you hook up a 15" cab to any guitar amp its gonna be very bassy and thats not true. There are many bright sounding 15s.

true fender twin custom 15' is the brightest amp i've ever played through (although I dont play many fenders) but it was ear piercing bright with conservative eq setting with a jazzmaster and the right balance on the usually super dark rythmn setting. I didn't care for the sound to much but it was far from too bassy.

 

[loudriver23]

Re: 210 vs 212 vs 115

Yeah,
I think I'm sold on the 212. Especially with my bassman operating at 4ohm, there are just too many speakers eliminated in a 112 or 115 config.
Plus from some of the homework I've done, a 112 would need a rather large sized cabinet to really sound it's best, at least to my ears.
So, if I can't really save much space over a 212 cabinet and I would have to eliminate a bunch of speakers from my possible selection list I think it just makes the most sense to go with a 212 cab.