59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

[remingtonbo2001]

First and foremost, I would like to thanks to BACHTOROCK for spreading the good news amongst the masses. You can have both folks. Anyways, on to my question. I was wondering if this pickup combination would sound good. Double Screw 59/CC Hybrid. The twist here is the way in which the screws are placed. The CC screw coil (bottom) would have screws placed in the shape of a hill or mountain, while the 59 coil (top) would have screws placed in the shape of a V. It could be vise versa, depending on preference. Here comes the question.....Here it comes......Is there any reason or logic to why this pickup configuration would not sound suitable? If anyone has tried this let me know.

 

[heavydutysg135]

Re: 59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

I am not sure if I understand your question. Dan Erlewine recomends adjusting the poles of the pickups to match the radius of the fretboard so the output of all the strings is ballanced. This would mean the middle screws would be slightly higher than the outside ones. If you reversed this like you asked the output of the strings would be uneven which is not desirable.

 

[remingtonbo2001]

Re: 59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

Hmmm, Yes, that's true, but I'm not sure if were thinking in the same context. It's a theory that needs more tweaking. Your slugs have a stronger pull, by removing them and placing in a screw coil you achieve less pull and a brighter sound. Or so I have been told. The strongest coil would be placed on the bottom, the weaker coil on the top. The screws on the bottom coil would be set up to par. The screws on the top would be set to the exact opposite, downward going towards the middle. By placing these screws down, with less magnet pull, wouldn't you achieve a slightly warmer sound, while still retaining the highs from the bottom coil? I should really try this. I think it would work, I'm just not sure what position to place the screws. It also might vary with guitar. I was more curious to see if anyone has used a Double Screw 59/CC Hybrid.

 

[PoorMan]

Re: 59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

Wow, we're getting into some weird sci-fi stuff here. I'm not sure I fully follow you, but the closer any one polepiece is to the string, the louder/brighter etc it will be. Depending on how exactly the screws were positioned, it sounds like the 59 would be louder on the E strings and diminish through to the G and B strings.

Again, not sure I understood exactly what you meant.

 

[remingtonbo2001]

Re: 59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

Alright, here's the deal. A Custom Custom coil (7.1K) and a 59 coil (4.1k), are placed together to create a 59/CC Hybrid. The stronger coil is placed nearest the bridge, while the weaker coil is placed furthest from the bridge. Now, if logic prevails, the stronger coil would have more control over tone, volume. That being said, with the Double Screw 59 Hybrid the amount of brightness would increase due to less magnetic pull, while output would drop. Now, if you place your lower coil (strongest) in normal position, with both E's being SLIGHTLY higher than the standard height, while taking the upper coil (weak) and placing the screws in the exact opposite position from the lower coil (strongest). All E screws should have the same height. By SLIGHTLY raising the height of the E screw, this would allow a SLIGHT increase in output. This is an experiment for the nit picker, such as myself, whom cannot put anything down until it's perfect.:laugh2:

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: 59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

I Love my A5 CC/59B Hybrid just like Pete told us early on...

 

[twoheadedboy]

Re: 59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

Further from the string = warmer and quieter
Closer = brighter and louder

You have your theory correct but I don't know how it will apply to the sound of the pickup.

 

[BachToRock]

Re: 59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

I think the large misconception here is the actual difference between the coils.
People look at resistance numbers such as 7.1 and 4.1 and think wow, that's a big difference! Electrically those two coils are pretty balanced because they are wound with different guage wires.
The thinner 43 guage wire of the Custom is by the laws of Physics more resistave than the 42 guage wire of the 59 and requires additional turns on the coil to produce the best tone and signal.
The thing that makes Hybrids work so well is that each different coil has unique response and resonant peaks... not so much of a "power" difference... when they are combined you end up with a fantastic sounding pickup... just like a Meritage wine that combines choice grapes to produce a tasty blend.
The diffence between a screw and a slug could be debated in many ways...
A slug concentrates a stronger magnetic field up to the strings which will produce a stronger attack and perceived brighter tone, but at the same it produces a larger field within the coil(higher inductance) which creates a beefier/thicker tone... that being said, slugs can be said to produce a tone that is just "MORE".
I have a double slug Alnico 59/Custom Hybrid in a Tele that sound massive...
I also use a couple double screw Hybrids... they are all great and the differences are negligable.

All that being said... I would think the general goal is to get an even response, so you would want to arc the polepieces similar to the radius of the fretboard. I generally lower the G and B for a "Modern Vintage" stagger. I think you should try your uneven experiment and see if you like it... it may be just the tone you are searching for!

 

[remingtonbo2001]

Re: 59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

I am going to try this tonight, so I will let you fellas know how it turns out. I am going to place 2 slugs in the upper coil at the both E positions though, for a deeper top and bottom. I'm not sure if this will work, or be an interference, but I'm not sure if anyone has tried a screw/slug combo coil. It's still in theory, but may very well be apart of history by tomorrow. We'll see.

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: 59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

Dan Erlewine recomends adjusting the poles of the pickups to match the radius of the fretboard so the output of all the strings is ballanced.

A good starting point. From there you can tweak according to the quirks of the individual guitar, e.g., relative strength and weakness of the resonance of each string.

EXAMPLE: Maybe with the poles radiused, the high E and G sound fine but the B string just doesn't seem to resonate as much and thus puts out a weaker signal. Raise the polepiece under it, problem solved, perfect radius be damned...

 

[Zhangliqun]

Re: 59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

I think the large misconception here is the actual difference between the coils.
People look at resistance numbers such as 7.1 and 4.1 and think wow, that's a big difference! Electrically those two coils are pretty balanced because they are wound with different guage wires.
The thinner 43 guage wire of the Custom is by the laws of Physics more resistave than the 42 guage wire of the 59 and requires additional turns on the coil to produce the best tone and signal.

I'm not sure I can go along with that. I've had plenty of PAF clone pickups in the 8k range that just don't sound nearly as loud or beefy as my 6.7 + 4.5 (11.2k) Jon Moore hybrid, no matter what magnet you pop in any of them. 7.1k is 7.1k whether it's #42, #43 or #90 gazillion wire.

Granted, if you took two coils and wound them both to 4.0k, one with #42 and the other with #43, the #42 (thicker wire) would sound beefier because it would result in a significantly wider coil that would be better able than the #43 coil to pick up the longer wavelengths of the mids and lows.

But once you crank the #43 coil up to 7k or more, you now have a coil that is at least as wide as the #42 coil to pick up the longer wavelengths from the string at least as well -- but now it has an extra 3k worth of resistance to further beef up both tone and output.

 

[remingtonbo2001]

Re: 59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

A good starting point. From there you can tweak according to the quirks of the individual guitar, e.g., relative strength and weakness of the resonance of each string.

EXAMPLE: Maybe with the poles radiused, the high E and G sound fine but the B string just doesn't seem to resonate as much and thus puts out a weaker signal. Raise the polepiece under it, problem solved, perfect radius be damned...

If I was only using one screw coil, I would completely agree. But I'm not. So in theory, the stongest coil (7.1k) will have more output, therefore the string vibration will react loudest to this coil. The strongest coil is the bottom coil, which the screws are lined up in standard form, the shape of the fret board curve. I call this a hill, or upward curve, but still the same thing. Now the second coil is only 4.1k. Being at the top, the screws will pickup a heavier tone. But, not so much as the slugs, due to less magnetic pull. So I figured, this would open things up more, but still allow those thick juicy mids come through on the CC. The 59 screws would allow for a brighter vintage tone, but not bright as to be to make the ears bleed. A very mellow bright. Does that make sense. I think I made a contradicting statement. Hmmm....But yeah, the second coil, in essance could almost be used like a pickup EQ. In theory that is. Yeah, I know this already somewhat true, but the Double Screw, in theory I remind, allows a person to go further in depth with the sound of the pickup. I could be wrong, I might be right. Either way, I'm about to find out tonight.

:beerchug: I know you dig the rhyme....Right there at the end.

 

[BachToRock]

Re: 59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

[QUOTE="7.1k is 7.1k whether it's #42, #43 or #90 gazillion wire."
COULD NOT BE FURTHER FROM REALITY... IF SO, IT WOULD BE A HECK OF A LOT EASIER TO WIND ABOUT 10 TURNS OF A 9 GUAGE WIRE THAN 5000 OF A 42 GUAGE...

"Granted, if you took two coils and wound them both to 4.0k, one with #42 and the other with #43, the #42 (thicker wire) would sound beefier because it would result in a significantly wider coil that would be better able than the #43 coil to pick up the longer wavelengths of the mids and lows."
IS THAT WHY... THE LAWS OF PHYSICS WOULD SEEM TO SAY IT IS BECAUSE THE LARGER WIRE IS LESS RESISTAVE AND A SIGNAL WITH GREATER AMPLITUDE AND CLARITY WAS BEING TRANSMITTED BY THE COIL

But once you crank the #43 coil up to 7k or more, you now have a coil that is at least as wide as the #42 coil to pick up the longer wavelengths from the string at least as well -- but now it has an extra 3k worth of resistance to further beef up both tone and output.
YOU HAVE NO IDEA OF WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT... A COIL DOES NOT PICK UP ACOUSTIC WAVELENGTHS FROM A STRING. THE COIL PRODUCES AN ELECTRICAL SIGNAL BECAUSE OF A REACTION TO THE STIMULATION OF THE MAGNETIC FIELD IT RESIDES WITHIN FROM THE VIBRATION OF THE STRING. COIL WIDTH AND HEIGHT PLAY A ROLE IN THE EQUATION IN REGARDS TO SOMETHING CALLED INDUCTANCE, WHICH IS AN ELECTRICAL FACTOR... THE COIL IS INDUCED BY THE MAGNETIC FIELD... IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE LENGTH OF THE ACOUSTICAL WAVELENGTHS A STRING PRODUCES[/QUOTE]

Sorry to blast you dood, but you need to develop a more thorough knowledge and understanding of electronics in regard to pickups before mis-informing fellow forum members.

 

[remingtonbo2001]

Re: 59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

The Double Screw 59/CC Hybrid, shall now be known from hence forth as BachToRock's Mellow Yellow. I used an Alnico 5, thinking the A2 would be too weak. Draw backs, the sound is slightly darker, as expected, but has a real glassy top end. Not too much bass. IMO, great for that tone right before breaking up. Nice CLEAN. I like it. I'm going to have to make a decision. I really do like the slug/screw combo with the a2. A warm milk type of tone, almost. But the Double Screw is a different sound. It's glassy. Almost Strat, not quite. Maybe a mix of LP smooth and Strat glass. I'm not sure. Worth trying out though.

 

[remingtonbo2001]

Re: 59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

Oh, thanks again Bach!

 

[WICKED LESTER]

Re: 59/CC Hybrid (Double Screw)

Sorry to blast you dood, but you need to develop a more thorough knowledge and understanding of electronics in regard to pickups before mis-informing fellow forum members.

BTR is absolutely correct in saying that the wire itself is not the only factor determining the output of a coil
when you speak of one coil with 5000 turns of awg 42 wire VS a coil wound with say 8000 turns of AWG 43
the 8000 turn one will not nessecerally dominate the 5000 turn one
with the custom and the 59b in stock form they both feature "MATCHED" coils
or also known as "mirror' imaged coils THAT ARE THEN mostly wired in series with one another by twisting the red/white wires together on duncan buckers

one coil has a start and a finish that then goes to the next coils start point.
what i think makes ANY HYBRID work so well harmonically as well as sonically
is that THERE IS drastic mismatched coil configuration
a older P.A.F sometimes had ONE coil wound a little hotter by accident but BOTH always used the same wire guage(AWG 42)
years ago dimarzio made a pup known as the MEGADRIVE
this was the first pup EVER i seen that featured two coils wound with different wire at different resistances

dimarzio described this as
one coil is acting as a woofer(picking up the low frequencies) and the other the tweeter(picking up the highs)
but that pup does not sound P.A.F like BTR's custom/59 pup
dimarzio went on to make other models known as "dual resonance" models
all these feature "mismatched" coils
the custom/59 is the best classic sounding pup at 11K i ever heard
with the most overtones and drive
the screming demon is at 10K but sounds a lot more modern then the hybrid
and the hybrid works with all magnet configurations
i like it with the II and 3 the most but it sounds equally well with a 5 or ceramic and is also very,very good with a alnico 8:beerchug: