7th chords? i feel like such a moran

[Snoogles]

of the following 3 chords:
major 7th
dominant 7th
minor 7th

can someone explain why the major-7th is different from the dominant-7th?
and if the dominant 7th has the 7th note that's 1 step down (ie: flatted, diminished, minor) from the major 7th... THEN WHY THE HELL IS IT CALLED A DOMINANT 7th ??!!!??

(cue Cranky running is circles screaming like a lunatic and jumping out the window)

 

[Warheart]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

Because its chord function, not quality.

A Major 7th chord and a 7th chord are 2 different things
For instance Cmaj7 vs C7.
Cmaj7 has C E G B ( C major with a natural 7, notice that the "maj" isn't saying that C is major, but that the 7th is a major 7th.

C7 has C E G Bb (Which is technically a C Major with a b7, or minor 7th)

Dominant (also written as the Roman Numeral "V") 7th chords are the second type.
It is the "Fifth" chord of a scale, and as such, functions as a Cadence. A Dominant Chord cannot be a maj 7.

Also:
Because Knowledge is Power!

 

[Snoogles]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

Because its chord function, not quality.

A Major 7th chord and a 7th chord are 2 different things
For instance Cmaj7 vs C7.
Cmaj7 has C E G B ( C major with a natural 7, notice that the "maj" isn't saying that C is major, but that the 7th is a major 7th.

C7 has C E G Bb (Which is technically a C Major with a b7, or minor 7th)

Dominant (also written as the Roman Numeral "V") 7th chords are the second type.
It is the "Fifth" chord of a scale, and as such, functions as a Cadence. A Dominant Chord cannot be a maj 7.

Also:
Because Knowledge is Power!

why would a C7 chord have a B-flat? why isn't it called a C7minor chord? or C7b chord?

fudge it, i'm never going to understand
i'll stick to learning Ramones songs

 

[Warheart]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

C7 has Bb because B is the 7th letter away from C. We wouldn't call Bb by its enharmonic A#, which is the same note, because it would be the 6th letter away from C, thus making it a Sixth chord.

The reason it isn't called a C7minor chord is the same reason when some one says "C" you think "C major" The major doesn't need to be specified.

Thus, these chords are possible:
C
Cmaj7 which would look like "C7M"
C7 (by simply saying "7" it is assumed that the 7 is flat)

All of the above are C major chords.

Cmin
Cmin + maj7 which would look like Cm7M
Cmin7

 

[Snoogles]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

C7 has Bb because B is the 7th letter away from C. We wouldn't call Bb by its enharmonic A#, which is the same note, because it would be the 6th letter away from C, thus making it a Sixth chord.

The reason it isn't called a C7minor chord is the same reason when some one says "C" you think "C major" The major doesn't need to be specified.

Thus, these chords are possible:
C
Cmaj7 which would look like "C7M"
C7 (by simply saying "7" it is assumed that the 7 is flat)

All of the above are C major chords.

Cmin
Cmin + maj7 which would look like Cm7M
Cmin7

EXACTLY!!! then why is the 7th flatted? in the key of C (C-chord) there aren't even any flats... or sharps for that matter.
so why does a C7 chord have a flatted note?
i understand that 7th-chords have an added 7th-note. but why is it flatted? :banghead:

I DON'T UNDERSTAND :crying:

 

[tone4days]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

seems more like you dont want to understand

there are rules ... conventions established a really long time ag ... when you learn them, and apply them, they are functional

if you choose to get hung up on what you (alone) think the words should be for things that are already established as standard, then you will not be able to meaningfully engage in conversation with those who do

memorise the spellings and use them properly

that is all

 

[Snoogles]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

seems more like you dont want to understand

there are rules ... conventions established a really long time ag ... when you learn them, and apply them, they are functional

if you choose to get hung up on what you (alone) think the words should be for things that are already established as standard, then you will not be able to meaningfully engage in conversation with those who do

memorise the spellings and use them properly

that is all

thanks for pointing out that i'm a mental retard

by the way, why don't YOU try to memorize proper spellings and go back and review the spellings of the words in your post.

now, since you obviously are of a far superior intellect than I, may i kindly state that i don't understand why a 7th-chord has a flat-7th. Especially a C7, when in the past, i learned that the key of C doesn't contain any flats

maybe you can enlighten me as to what i am not understanding.

unless that is, you just like to highlight other people's failures and shortcommings

 

[Warheart]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

Its literally all in the link to wikipedia I gave you.

"Of all the seventh chords, perhaps the most important is the dominant seventh. It was the first seventh chord to appear regularly in classical music. The name comes from the fact that it occurs naturally in the seventh chord built upon the dominant (i.e. the fifth degree) of a given major diatonic scale."

"The note G is the dominant degree of C major - its fifth note. When we arrange the notes of the C major scale in ascending pitch and use only these notes to build a seventh chord, and we start with G (not C), then the resulting chord contains the four notes G-B-D-F and is called G dominant seventh (G7). The note F is a minor seventh from G, and is also called the dominant seventh with respect to G."

"This basic dominant seventh chord is useful to composers because it contains both a major triad and the interval of a tritone. The major triad confers a very "strong" sound. The tritone is created by the co-occurrence of the third degree and seventh degree (e.g., in the G7 chord, the acoustic distance between B and F is a tritone). In a diatonic context, the third of the chord is the leading-tone of the scale, which has a strong tendency to pull towards the tonal center, or root note, of the key (e.g., in C, the third of G7, B, is the leading tone of the key of C). The seventh of the chord acts as an upper leading-tone to the third of the scale (in C: the seventh of G7, F, is a half-step above and leads down to E).[4] This, in combination with the strength of root movement by fifth, and the natural resolution of the dominant triad to the tonic triad (e.g., from GBD to CEG in the key of C major), creates a resolution with which to end a piece or a section of a piece. Because of this original usage, it also quickly became an easy way to trick the listener's ear with a deceptive cadence."

 

[Warheart]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

Just because you're in the key of C doesn't mean much.

"Accidentals" are what make music great. Don't limit yourself strictly to what notes you THINK you should be playing, and try and FEEL the notes you should be playing.

 

[samu]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

The member Warheart said it already: 4 notes accordingly.

It takes 3 notes for plain Minor or Major, then add up extras for designated 6th, 7th, 9th, 11th, etc. Just do it.

Theoretically, it does not matter which of the notes are the highest or lowest in octave. In Practice (tone-wise) it matters a lot.

Let's say if it's C7, then dominant is the C note regardless where it's located related to other notes. Then, your bass player keeps up with let's say at C during the passage (whatever it is). On top you play E G Bb to give a full 7 chord.

Samu

 

[tone4days]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

i don't understand why a 7th-chord has a flat-7th.

there is no 'why' ... it simply is defined that way ... nothing to do but memorize it ... or not ... your choice

Especially a C7, when in the past, i learned that the key of C doesn't contain any flats

you correctly remember that there are no sharps or flats in the key of C

now you need to learn that the chord C7 is not in the key of C

do you know how to find out what chords are in a key?

 

[Snoogles]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

i guess all of your responses clearly illustrate why i will never understand music theory.

especially Samu's response. cuz he's coming up with answers that i didn't even know i asked

if only there were a smiley-face icon for putting a gun in one's mouth and blowing out the back of its head.

this is the straw that breaks this camel's back:

"now you need to learn that the chord C7 is not in the key of C"

i give up

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

thanks for pointing out that i'm a mental retard

by the way, why don't YOU try to memorize proper spellings and go back and review the spellings of the words in your thread title.

now, since you obviously are of a far superior intellect than I, may i kindly state that i don't understand why a 7th-chord has a flat-7th. Especially a C7, when in the past, i learned that the key of C doesn't contain any flats

maybe you can enlighten me as to what i am not understanding.

unless that is, you just like to highlight other people's failures and shortcommings

Fixed

Or learn to spell.

Moron (psychology), disused term for a person with a mental age between 8 and 12, and a common insult for a person considered stupid (or just a generic insult)

This - A product of the illiterate.

moran
Anyone with an opposing view.
Get a brain morans! Go USA!!!

 

[samu]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

if only there were a smiley-face icon for putting a gun in one's mouth and blowing out the back of its head.

i give up

Hehe, screw you old cranky-d-man. It ain't rocket science, it's all about playing stuff, innit?

Replace that irritating C7 with straight C, and you are on top already. Heck, play a two-note C-G interval. And if you dig it so, stick one of your other available fingers on some other note there is on the fingerboard and taste it.

****

I'm rather accomplished in so-called "music theory". It took seriously time from me to say so.

Honestly, the guy who first called it "music theory", I'd like to hang him from the balls. Music has no "theory".

On the other hand, notation is like any other practical language. You have your talk on streets to find your way. And whadda you know, the same with this thing here.

Keep it useful to you.

Samu

 

[Snoogles]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

Fixed

Or learn to spell.


This - A product of the illiterate.

your contribution is incalculable
i feel as though an angel descended from the heavens and blessed me with the knowledge of the universe

 

[GoldenVulture]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

your contribution is incalculable
i feel as though an angel descended from the heavens and blessed me with the knowledge of the universe

It's your basic ABC [ for primary age persons ].

No wonder you can't make head or tail of your C7th, if that's the way you interpret what is written.:newangel:

 

[loudriver23]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

If you really want to get into "Music Theory" you need to settle down and embrace the process.
No it's not rocket science, but there are things that can be tricky to grasp/memorize.
The guys here have provided the direct answer to your question, and even provided a link that explains it in great detail.
If you are truly having a tough time understanding this, perhaps signing up for a into to music fundamentals class would be in order. The phrase I use is "Intellectual Curiosity". People can give you the answers, but this doesn't really do a whole lot to help you understand the answers they've provided. If you really, honestly want to learn this stuff, then it's you that needs to take the next step.

 

[GuitarStv]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

thanks for pointing out that i'm a mental retard

by the way, why don't YOU try to memorize proper spellings and go back and review the spellings of the words in your post.

now, since you obviously are of a far superior intellect than I, may i kindly state that i don't understand why a 7th-chord has a flat-7th. Especially a C7, when in the past, i learned that the key of C doesn't contain any flats

maybe you can enlighten me as to what i am not understanding.

unless that is, you just like to highlight other people's failures and shortcommings

BTW . . . just as an aside . . . but 'memorise' is as correct as 'memorize'. It's the British spelling of the word. Many words have alternate (valid) spellings:
http://www.lukemastin.com/testing/spelling/cgi-bin/database.cgi?action=view_category&database=spelling&category=M

 

[playas]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

If it helps Cranky, I don´t get it either :eek2:
...sounds like it may be one of those things you have to just accept in order to learn / get a grasp on it, rather than trying to understand how it works.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: 7th chords? i feel like such a moran

Believe it or not other posters have answered your question very succinctly, but due to your frustration at not understanding all of it you may have not yet procesed what they have written yet.
IN some ways im glad you are frustrated with this because it shows you really want to understand music. You do need to relax a little tho, because the whole system of western music is built on a bunch of concepts that take a long time to understand and a lot of persistence. If it doesn't make sense initially, you may need to start at the beginning.
Im going to attempt an explanation, because as someone with a degree in music theory and a full time jazz musician and conservatorium guitar teacher i think understand your frustrations with the nomenculature of dom 7 chords.
However, I am afraid that if i write something that you will throw your hands up and have a tantrum like you have with the other posters. THe first thing you need to undersdtand is the concept of intervals. If you really want to get to the bottom of this you will need to do some research on your own and im happy to reccommend some avenues to explore. If you are, then send me a PM.

However you seem to want a quick and dirty answer to your problem: so here is an attempt quick and dirty explanation of why 7th chords are called that. There is a lot more to understand about chord function, but this might at least address some of your frustrations.

1. Chords are constructed from triads.
2. Triads are created by using the 1st, 3rd, and 5th notes of any scale. There are many types of scales.
3. There a only 4 types of triads: major (1,3,5), minor (1,b3,5), augmented (1,3,#5) and diminished (1,b3,b5)
4. Chords constructed using additional voices to the triads are collectively known as 7th chords because the include both the triad (1,3,5) and the 7th degree of the scale.
5. A MAJOR 7th chord is based on the major scale and includes therefore 1,3,5 and 7...in the key of c for example, that would be the notes C,E,G and B.
A MINOR 7th chord contains 1,b3,5 and b7
Dominant 7th chords (or just 7th chords for short) are created using the 1,3,5 and flat7.
There are even diminished 7th chords that contain, 1,b3,b5 and a double flattened 7!

...now here is i think why you are getting frustrated....you want to know why the 7th chord (ie. the one with the flattened 7th) is called the 7th chord when really it includes a flat seven. Cos it seems more logical to call the Maj 7 a 7 and a major triad with a flat 7 a major flat 7 chord Right?
Heres why......its actually to save time believe it or not.
Imagine an E chord (1,3,5) with a flat 7 (currently recognized as E7).....would you call it Eb7, or even e b7? or perhaps e maj b7? Bad idea...because that seems more like its an Eb chord with the 7th on top right? So to save confusion when analyzing chord structures of songs, it had become the norm to call any chord with a flattened 7, just a 7 chord.
Heres some examples where just calling a major triad with a flat 7 just a 7 chord is easier:
standard and simple: g7,f#7,gb7
difficult and confusing: g b7 (or is that a gb7?), f#b7 (is that f sharp or f flat 7?), gb7 (is that G with a flat 7, or Gb with a seven?)

For now, just accept that major chords with a flat seven are called 7th and major chords with a regular 7th are called maj7. IN the meantime, if this confuses you still, then you need to start at the beginning and learn about intervals and keys and all that stuff. Im happy to help start at the start if you want to send a PM.