Accoustic help needed.....

BloodRose

Professional Scapegoat
Im kinda embarassed to post this, as Im sure it's probably not tech, but technique.. But its bugging me and I need to get fixed or confirmed.
Here is my deal.. I was blessed with a fantastic accoustic many years ago, so it prolly isnt the guitar. But I have a heck of a time playing it. I was/am sure it's just weak fingers, since I didnt really start on accoustic, but on electric. But, I figured over the years my fingers would strengthen, espec since Ive been playing a bit of bass as of late. But I cant get clean barre chords and can barely play the thing. I cant tell you what guage strings I have on it, but the sales guy (who is also a respected tech) told me the guage was equivalent to .10s on and electric.

Any advice on what may need done? lighter guage? Im sure the answer would just be play it more, but since I only get to practice in the middle of the night, I have to use an electric (either unplugged or thru headphones). But perhaps there is something in the setup?
Thanks for any input.
 
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Re: Accoustic help needed.....

Not sure about your sales guy as 10's are 10's no matter what. Acoustics are not so different from electrics that the strings magically change or something. I'm guessing your action is just high. The nut could be too tall or the bridge or a combination of both. If you're used to a smaller neck radius the larger and thus flatter fingerboard could be giving you trouble. Some pics and a few measurements could help us help you better. How thin of a pick can you slide under the strings at the first fret and still have it stay put? The colored Dunlop picks can come in handy as a poor man's feeler gauge .
 
Re: Accoustic help needed.....

How far up the neck are you trying to bar? If you can manage double stops on bass, your fingers should cope with acoustic guitar.

In my opinion, tens are too light for an acoustic guitar.
 
Re: Accoustic help needed.....

What qualifies as "regular" or "medium" for an acoustic is very different from electric. In fact, DR's 12-52 set of nickelwound electric strings, the heaviest electric set they sell, are labelled "extra heavy", while that same gauge is "light" for acoustic guitar. The heaviest that most retail stores bother stocking in electric is 11-50, and most won't bother with acoustic strings lighter than 12-52.

Go to the store and get yourself a set of Elixir Nanoweb 80/20s in the "light" gauge, which is 12-52. I like coated strings on acoustics, because a non-coated bronze string just oxidizes so fast, no matter what you do to protect it, that for double the cost per set, you'll end up tripling your strings' life. Put these on, tune to pitch, and play. They will still feel heavier than an electric, but much more manageable than a "regular" or "medium" set of 13-56 or thereabouts. I can usually go back and forth between my acoustic using these 12-52s, and my two electrics with 10-46s, without too much trouble, though I have an advantage in that acoustic is my primary instrument for most of my work.

If you find the guitar is simply unplayable even with these lighter strings, it may need a setup. If you know how to do that yourself, or you can trust yourself to follow the myriad instructions available online, do so (really the only permanent damage you can do to a guitar by performing a basic setup is snapping the truss rod, so just be careful adjusting it). If you don't trust yourself to do it right, take it to a reputable luthier and he'll get it set up for you. Mention that the strings are new, and most luthiers will try to save them (and knock off a few bucks, as they usually figure in the cost of a new set to the price of a setup).

Also, check that the top hasn't bowed up; this can happen on solid-top acoustic guitars if you're a little overzealous with the humidifiers, even in winter. The usual test is to take a ruler or other straightedge, place it against the frets at the heel of the neck between the two middle strings, and slide it out over the soundhole to the bridge. The end of the straightedge should just barely clear the wooden bridge before bumping into the saddle. If you hit the bridge, the top is too wet and has swelled. If this is the case, take the instrument and all humidifiers out of the case, and go over the case's liner with a hair dryer to dry it out well, then put the instrument back in the case, without humidifiers, and add a few packets of silica gel dessicant (the ones you find in boxes for consumer electronics, that kind of thing; you can buy these in bulk and keep them in a ziplock bag until needed). Check the action every day or two until the top levels out, repeating the case dryout as needed, and once the guitar passes the ruler test, get yourself a hygrometer to monitor the relative humidity in the case, and use the humidifiers or silica gel as needed to maintain around 40-50% RH.

If the top hasn't bowed, you might have a saddle that's too high; I'd trust adjustments for such things to a pro, especially if you have a piezo pickup, because these adjustments involve taking material off the bottom of the saddle, while keeping that surface flat. If you end up with a curved saddle piece, concave or convex, the response of the piezo pickup will be affected, and of course, you can't put material back on the saddle once you've taken it off; go to low and you're buying a new saddle.

If you want to build up your fingers on electric, take your Les Paul (if you have one; its nut width and fretboard radius are more similar to an acoustic than a Strat's) and put on a set of Elixir Nano "heavy" electric strings, which will be the same gauges as the acoustics. Practice with that guitar for a while, forsaking all others, then when you go back to your acoustic, you'll have a similar feel and you'll have developed the finger strength needed.

DO NOT use one of those spring-loaded finger trainers. First off, they don't help you develop thicker callouses, which is half the battle for dealing with the heavier-gauge strings. Second, they might build up the big muscles, but they don't help your precision or flexibility, which are key on a fretboard. Lastly, they don't give you any feedback about proper technique; you can curl your fingers like you're playing a trumpet, or hold them straight (bent backward, more like), the trainer doesn't care, but your strings will. You have to develop strength in the small tensor and flexor muscles all along each finger in order to be able to hold an even pressure along all the strings, and the best way to do that is simply to play often and a lot.

Lastly, remember that you're just not going to play an acoustic the same way you do an electric. Acoustic guitars are a different instrument, firmly in the rhythm category, and when playing one you tend to take a step back and slow down (though don't tell Django Reinhart I said that)
 
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Re: Accoustic help needed.....

Well, the action isnt real low, (Ive seen bunches lower and bunches higher) Here is why I worry its me.. The guitar is a taylor and I took it to one of the road shows a year or so ago and asked them to check what I thought was a strange sound. The taylor rep looked it over, tuned it up and said it was fine. I figure he would have caught it if it was "out of spec " or something.

I had a cheap accoustic many years ago that had poor action and then the back end of the bridge started pulling out of the wood and so the action ended up being about 1/2 inch.. haha
 
Re: Accoustic help needed.....

I do not acknowledge anyone who uses the web speak "prolly"
 
Re: Accoustic help needed.....

Tension can be a big issue in acoustic playablilty. That can be caused by string gauges, action, and .... some other mysterious elements that can sometimes still remain even with a low action and medium or light strings. I had an acoustic that always had a high tension despite my setting the action quite low and using moderately light strings (in acoustic terms). I never really understood why that guitar always felt prohibitively stiff.
 
Re: Accoustic help needed.....

Yeah, just seems stiff to me, but again, could just be me.. any tests for that?
 
Re: Accoustic help needed.....

I'd say just keep playing it exclusively for a month. In 30 days, you'll be moving your electrics up to 12s.
 
Re: Accoustic help needed.....

My recommendation is take it to a certified taylor shop and have the action lowered, if you play softer or finger pick you can afford to lower the strings and not get into any buzzing trouble, now if you flat pick or play a driving style of rythem then leave the action a little higher. it all really depends on your style of playing, and as for string size and style, years ago i used electric strings on my acustic and had great action from them, the only problem was i lost volume, but now i play more of a driving rythem and flat pick style so i went to heavier acustic strings for the volume and lower end tone. as for kind, style, brand of strings, i personally like non coated strings, sure they tarnish and for a lack of better words (die) quicker but IMO they are louder and hold sustain better, but i change strings at least once a month anyway so i dont have that issue. Good luck with your set up.
 
Re: Accoustic help needed.....

Hey man, hope you're doing well.

You didn't mention what model Taylor, but they are all great instruments that should play really well when setup correctly. The way I see it, it's an issue with the guitar setup, your finger/hand strength or your expectations/technique.

Setup:
As others have mentioned, a good setup can really improve the playability of an acoustic. Seasonal changes move an acoustic much more than an electric. If you haven't already, I'd get a ruler with a fine scale and perhaps some feeler gauges as well. (I got mine at harbor freight along with a digital caliper, all incredibly cheap) check the nut height, neck relief, and action at the 12th. If any one of these measurements is way off, I'd recommend a luthier fully set it up for you. Also, as Liko mentioned, humidity plays a key role in acoustic maintenance and longevity. Up here in the upper Midwest I can't get enough moisture into my guitar. You may be dealing with over humidification. There's a great explanation about this on Taylor's site using the aforementioned ruler.

Finger/Hand strength:
Also as mentioned above, it's difficult to understand what gauge your instrument currently has. I would check out a set of Custom Lights 11-52 (Elixirs are great) as that should still move the top but are easier to play than lights. The other key is to play everyday. You can go a week without playing your electrics with 9's and suffer minimal consequences. Acoustics with larger strings really do require some hand strength and calluses to play comfortably. As a reference, I began playing acoustic about a year ago by borrowing my brother's cheap Fender. 11-52's were tough for me! I played regularly and built up some calluses and finger/hand strength. A few months later I upped it to 12-53's (lights). Finally in October I got my first Martin and those Mediums (13-56) took a few weeks to build up to! But now I'm used to it, and the guitar sounds great due to those strings. So, start light, practice continually and move up.

Expectations/Technique:
And acoustic guitar is not an Electric. You're not going to get it setup like a Jackson Soloist AND have it resonate and sound like a rich acoustic! Tone really is in the fingers and it takes time to teach your fingers the more precise positioning and pressure required by an acoustic to pull out nice full toned notes and chords. As such you're not going to be able to play the same licks on it as you would your Charvels, and that's awesome. Different instrument, different sounds and music. Additionally, you mentioned barreing chords, on electric we can get away with sloppy technique, the 9's and 10's are flexible enough for us to out-muscle the strings. Acoustic tensions require the correct technique, finger placement and hand angle. Try pulling your elbow toward your ribs a bit to rotate your wrist. Sometimes this helps with a better angle on the first finger.

If all else fails, you could send the guitar over to me... ;) Good luck my man!
 
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Re: Accoustic help needed.....

Thanks all! PFDarkside, 1999 814CE. Yeah, alot of it is the angle and barre position. I was experimenting coupla nights ago and barring closer to the fret with better result. I think mostly Im playing lazy cuz I can on the electric.. I will take it to see if there any set up issues or things that can be improved.
 
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