Alder with Maple cap?

[Jake]

I'm currently in the process of designing a custom guitar with a small builder - almost an endorsement deal of sorts.

I'm having them build a thinline-esque Telecaster with an alder body. However, the builder approached me and has acquired some beautiful maple he could cap the alder with. Would this make the guitar too bright? I know it would look cool, but I'm afraid it could make the highs, well, too high.

Thoughts?

 

[Derpottsie]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

I'm currently in the process of designing a custom guitar with a small builder - almost an endorsement deal of sorts.

I'm having them build a thinline-esque Telecaster with an alder body. However, the builder approached me and has acquired some beautiful maple he could cap the alder with. Would this make the guitar too bright? I know it would look cool, but I'm afraid it could make the highs, well, too high.

Thoughts?

Nahh slap an Alnico 8 magnet pup in there and voila. It should tame the brightness and give it some balls. Might can get away with Alnico 5

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J320A using Tapatalk

 

[treyhaislip]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

I've used a JB in an Alder+Maple Strat and while the trebles were definitely present I would not say they were more over the top than in my Alder Strat (both Floyd Roses, both Maple+Rosewood necks with same scale length.) I am of the camp that all materials combined (and quality thereof) factor into the tone of the guitar.

I don't think the Maple cap is going to make your guitar too bright...if it does (which how can you measure that without a before and after?) there are plenty of ways to tame the highs. If you want a figured Maple cap then go for it, if it doesn't really matter then I'd say just stick to your original design.

 

[daenius]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

Certainly would NOT be too bright! Go for it!

I've tried out quite a few alder back + maple top Tom Andersons: nice rich balanced tone, you forget that the maple top is even there when you listen to it. Then you look at it and go "damn that looks awesome"

I personally own 3 guitars that are swamp ash + maple cap. Couldn't be happier with their tone and looks too!

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

Certainly would NOT be too bright! Go for it!

I've tried out quite a few alder back + maple top Tom Andersons: nice rich balanced tone, you forget that the maple top is even there when you listen to it. Then you look at it and go "damn that looks awesome"

I personally own 3 guitars that are swamp ash + maple cap. Couldn't be happier with their tone and looks too!

I certainly agree 100%. If OP is too concerned, you could just add the veneer cosmetic veneer as does Warmoth ( who specifically states their caps have no effect on the tone) instead of the full thickness cap. I think the full thickness Maple cap does have an effect- you got all that glue slathered on top of the core body, and I personally think a thick Maple cap could add some brightness.

In any case there is a view on wood bodies is that there is too much mass to effect the tone much at all on an electric guitar ( acoustic is different).Some claim from an engineering standpoint, it is said by morer or less the same people the neck is the primary vibrating element of the guitar that effects the tone, and also the hardware and pickups. It's also claimed by many that the pickup doesn't even sense body wood vibrations, so stuff like direct mounting is pointless.

I disinclined to believe this. I think it may be mass or density or something, along with the moisture content or whatnot. Lots of players and pickup makers, and builders are also of the opinion that body wood makes a big difference.

 

[daenius]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

I certainly agree 100%. If OP is too concerned, you could just add the veneer cosmetic veneer as does Warmoth ( who specifically states their caps have no effect on the tone) instead of the full thickness cap. I think the full thickness Maple cap does have an effect- you got all that glue slathered on top of the core body, and I personally think a thick Maple cap could add some brightness.

In any case there is a view on wood bodies is that there is too much mass to effect the tone much at all on an electric guitar ( acoustic is different).Some claim from an engineering standpoint, it is said by morer or less the same people the neck is the primary vibrating element of the guitar that effects the tone, and the hardware and pickups. It's also claimed by many that the pickup doesn't even sense body wood vibrations, so stuff like direct mounting is pointless.

I disinclined to believe this. I think it may be mass or density or something, along with the moisture content or whatnot. Lots of players and pickup makers, and builders are also of the opinion that body wood makes a big difference.

Body wood is a rather slippery slope in itself. I own too many guitars, and several of them have the same body wood, and none of them sound the same. I think while the type of wood makes a difference, the INDIVIDUAL PIECE of wood also makes a difference. Wood is organic so no 2 pieces will be 100% the same in terms of density and weight distribution. Because of that, I always like blanket statements like "swamp ash sounds bright" with a grain of salt: truth is that no 2 pieces of swamp ash will have the same amount of brightness.

So at the end of the day, everything makes a difference and the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. That's why even top guitar builders can't 100% accurately predict the sound of a guitar before it's fully built. They all spec out the wood, pickups, hardware, and they project the guitar to have a general ball park of sound. But when they finish the guitar and strum that first chord they always go "oooooooo this sounds cool", because there's always that little extra unique mojo that makes every guitar different. And hey, that's what we love about this wonderful instrument!

That said, I'd happily take that maple cap. Will it have a sonic effect? Maybe. Is it guaranteed that it's gonna add a lot of brightness? Nope, it may add a bit of brightness, or it may just attenuate some loose boomy bass, or that particular piece of alder and maple just work perfectly together. Now, is it guaranteed to LOOK BADASS?! HELL YES

GO GET THAT MAPLE CAP~!

 

[AlexR]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

^ This is a good post.

I don't think any guitar should be second guessed tonally. You will have to take a 'leap of faith' pickup wise anyhow in merely speccing out pickups for any alder tele of conventional design but new construction. The same will be done for that step with an alder thinline with maple cap/top too.

 

[MetalManiac]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

^ Excellent Alex. The more i am experienced the more I can tell by intuition what would pickups would probably work best in with the tonewoods. You really cannot hardly go wrong following Seymours suggestion advice.

 

[daenius]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

^ Excellent Alex. The more i am experienced the more I can tell by intuition what would pickups would probably work best in with the tonewoods. You really cannot hardly go wrong following Seymours suggestion advice.

Seymour has seen so many guitars and pickup combos in his life that he can eyeball a guitar and know what pickups should be good for it, lol

 

[2ndhandband]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

Allow me to erect my flame shield before speaking...

OK, here it is. The tone of a solidbody guitar is roughly 80% electronics and 15% hardware. The wood is 5% at most.

Seriously, next time I'm down in my buddy's studio I'll lay down identical tracks using his Les Paul, his SG, and his Jackson Rhoads all of which have 57 Classics and I'll post them here and dare anybody to tell me which guitar I'm using on which track.

If you think the maple cap looks cool put it on. It won't make a big enough difference that you can't compensate with EQ.

 

[AlexR]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

^ Doing any test with individual guitars is a trap. You can have LP's that are indistinguishable from 335's, Tele's, or SG's given the natural variations in the organic component.

As you say, pickups do account for a good portion of tone and unless you have identical pickups in each guitar then a good test it is certainly not.

And not only that, you can pick tonal changes without knowing what the specific guitar is. Even with the same pickup and hardware, if you can pick a difference then indeed it is a success of the test and proof of the wood contribution. Remember that wood is not an absolute.
Plus there are still the unknown variables of player and amp which can cloud the specifics and prevent ID

 

[2ndhandband]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

^ Doing any test with individual guitars is a trap. You can have LP's that are indistinguishable from 335's, Tele's, or SG's given the natural variations in the organic component.

As you say, pickups do account for a good portion of tone and unless you have identical pickups in each guitar then a good test it is certainly not.

And not only that, you can pick tonal changes without knowing what the specific guitar is. Even with the same pickup and hardware, if you can pick a difference then indeed it is a success of the test and proof of the wood contribution. Remember that wood is not an absolute.
Plus there are still the unknown variables of player and amp which can cloud the specifics and prevent ID

I didn't say there was no difference at all... but I will say, unequivocally, that the difference between the three will be minute enough that I could compensate for it 100% with EQ. We're talking an all mahogany guitar, a mahogany with thick maple cap, and a maple neck-thru with a Floyd and I'll bet anything you like I can EQ them to indistiguishability.

I sometimes mix a band with a guitarist running an LP and a PRS with identical dimarzios and by the time it gets through the PA to the house I can't hear the difference at all.

 

[daenius]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

Allow me to erect my flame shield before speaking...

OK, here it is. The tone of a solidbody guitar is roughly 80% electronics and 15% hardware. The wood is 5% at most.

Seriously, next time I'm down in my buddy's studio I'll lay down identical tracks using his Les Paul, his SG, and his Jackson Rhoads all of which have 57 Classics and I'll post them here and dare anybody to tell me which guitar I'm using on which track.

If you think the maple cap looks cool put it on. It won't make a big enough difference that you can't compensate with EQ.

Challenge me to tell you which guitar is which with the same pickups? Please, I can't even tell a single coil from a humbucker in a recording, let alone all using the same pickup LOL! When I heard Stairway to Heaven's solo for the first time and I saw an iconic image of Jimmy Page I swore that solo was a Les Paul... NOPE, TELECASTER~~~~~~~~~

I have over 20 guitars and I swear each one of them sound uniquely different when I play them. When I record them, they sound 85% the same. I can pull up any old recording of mine and I won't be able to tell you what guitar I used unless I specifically noted down which one it was xD

Years ago someone on the Suhr forum did a test: he had 2 identical Suhr guitars, just that one is alder the other is swamp ash. What he did was he used the same neck, and just swapped bodies, then recorded some clips and asked who could tell. I listened to them and I couldn't hear any real difference at all. I could hear slight differences, but that's the same kind of difference you would have if you just played the same riff twice on the exact same guitar: as human beings we don't play exactly the same way every time.

 

[2ndhandband]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

Challenge me to tell you which guitar is which with the same pickups? Please, I can't even tell a single coil from a humbucker in a recording, let alone all using the same pickup LOL! When I heard Stairway to Heaven's solo for the first time and I saw an iconic image of Jimmy Page I swore that solo was a Les Paul... NOPE, TELECASTER~~~~~~~~~

I have over 20 guitars and I swear each one of them sound uniquely different when I play them. When I record them, they sound 85% the same. I can pull up any old recording of mine and I won't be able to tell you what guitar I used unless I specifically noted down which one it was xD

Years ago someone on the Suhr forum did a test: he had 2 identical Suhr guitars, just that one is alder the other is swamp ash. What he did was he used the same neck, and just swapped bodies, then recorded some clips and asked who could tell. I listened to them and I couldn't hear any real difference at all. I could hear slight differences, but that's the same kind of difference you would have if you just played the same riff twice on the exact same guitar: as human beings we don't play exactly the same way every time.

Oh, I can tell a single from a bucker. But I can't tell you what it's in.

 

[daenius]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

Oh, I can tell a single from a bucker. But I can't tell you what it's in.

Teehee, you're better than me xD

I have to say though, the amp settings make the biggest difference of them all. If you've got a good amp that has powerful controls, you can make any guitar sound close to what you want. The worst case is "it could be better", but it'll never be atrociously off. It's why I don't swap pickups unless I've played with it enough through different amp settings and really homed in on what I think the pickup isn't doing for me. For example, if I could never get rid of an annoying high end sizzle through any amp setting, or if the pickup doesn't quite get fat enough despite adding a ton of gain and mids, then I'll consider swapping. Hey, that also helps me buy pickups because I'll know exactly what I need at that point! This guitar sounds a bit thin and fizzy no matter how I dial my amp? TIME TO BUY A FAT SOUNDING PICKUP! That guitar has an annoying mid honk that I can't get rid of unless I scoop my mids to a really hollow sounding level? Time to install scoopy pickup!

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

I hate this mythbusting rubbish from inexperienced beginners who probably don't even know they're beginners who have a lot to learn.

The differences between the sounds of different body and neck and fingerboard woods are experienced when you hold and play the guitars...not when you listen to a recording of them.

I don't create when listening to a recording...I create when holding and playing the guitar in that present moment.

Players will usually feel (emotionally, creatively, etc.) different playing one guitar compared to the other.

And the one that sparks that creativity is the one to keep.

But you can't tell that from listening to a recording or from listening to someone else compare those guitars.

It's not just hearing a sound. It's how you feel when you're producing that sound from a guitar held in your own hands.

 

[2ndhandband]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

I hate this mythbusting rubbish from inexperienced beginners who probably don't even know they're beginners who have a lot to learn.

The differences between the sounds of different body and neck and fingerboard woods are experienced when you hold and play the guitars...not when you listen to a recording of them.

I don't create when listening to a recording...I create when holding and playing the guitar in that present moment.

Players will usually feel (emotionally, creatively, etc.) different playing one guitar compared to the other.

And the one that sparks that creativity is the one to keep.

But you can't tell that from listening to a recording or from listening to someone else compare those guitars.

It's not just hearing a sound. It's how you feel when you're producing that sound from a guitar held in your own hands.

Tell you what... when I'm practicing/writing/preparing for a recording I use literally whatever guitar is lying around in the living room through my crappy sounding iRig. I don't think what guitar I'm holding materially alters the way I play. I've always been of the mind that music is in you head first... THEN you translate it to your instrument. Not the other way around.

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

Tell you what... when I'm practicing/writing/preparing for a recording I use literally whatever guitar is lying around in the living room through my crappy sounding iRig. I don't think what guitar I'm holding materially alters the way I play. I've always been of the mind that music is in you head first... THEN you translate it to your instrument. Not the other way around.

Nice theory. Might even be true for a Beethoven or Mozart or Ellington.

I've written songs both with and without holding my guitar.

But I've been playing for over 50 years now and although I hear music in my mind almost constantly, I've also experienced fresh new music that seemed to flow out of me unexpectedly when I started playing a fine guitar that I FELT a real comfort and connection with.

A fine instrument definitely inspires that creative flow in me.

In fact, it's what I look for in a guitar: does it inspire fresh new original music or not?

 

[2ndhandband]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

Nice theory. Might even be true for a Beethoven or Mozart or Ellington.

I've written songs both with and without holding my guitar.

But I've been playing for over 50 years now and although I hear music in my mind almost constantly, I've also experienced fresh new music that seemed to flow out of me unexpectedly when I started playing a fine guitar that I FELT a real comfort and connection with.

A fine instrument definitely inspires that creative flow in me.

In fact, it's what I look for in a guitar: does it inspire fresh new original music or not?

To be honest... I've never really experienced that. The guitar is a tool. Half the time when I'm writing I'm doing it at my computer using notation software; it's faster and I can put in backing tracks as I go. I'm in no way equipped to record at home anyway. I'll pick up a guitar to check feasibility of some things as much as anything, and again it's usually whichever of my strats is in the LR a the moment plugged into the iRig; I don't even HAVE an amp where I practice and write.

 

[daenius]

Re: Alder with Maple cap?

I hate this mythbusting rubbish from inexperienced beginners who probably don't even know they're beginners who have a lot to learn.

The differences between the sounds of different body and neck and fingerboard woods are experienced when you hold and play the guitars...not when you listen to a recording of them.

I don't create when listening to a recording...I create when holding and playing the guitar in that present moment.

Players will usually feel (emotionally, creatively, etc.) different playing one guitar compared to the other.

And the one that sparks that creativity is the one to keep.

But you can't tell that from listening to a recording or from listening to someone else compare those guitars.

It's not just hearing a sound. It's how you feel when you're producing that sound from a guitar held in your own hands.

Yeah, it's like looking at race cars

Listening to a recording = Audience looking at race cars... they all fast. They can't tell you how differently a Mustang handles vs a Camaro.
Playing the guitar itself = Driving the race car. Only YOU the driver can tell how the car handles and responds when you turn that wheel or floor that pedal. Your performance is indeed affected by how the car drives to you.

There's no mythbusting here, just pointing out the difference between a recorded guitar tone or how it's perceived by the audience vs the tone in the room when you're playing and hearing it live yourself.

Every guitar I own plays and sounds uniquely different when I play them, and that's what I love about them. You always hear a the natural acoustic tone of the guitar when you're sitting there playing it through your amp, and I like that. It's the reason why I never practice or write using headphones + software plugins: I never feel inspired by that rather dry processed sound, it feels one dimensional. Nothing inspires like plugging into a nice amp, crank it, and let it rip next to you.

Different guitars simply inspire me to play differently on each. This is certainly true for me, as I have a few guitars that are nearly identical in specs, but I always play hard rock on one of them, and always feel like playing Beatles on the other. Why is that? No clue, it just happens for me.

But that's not necessarily true for everyone out there. I know players who feel the same way as I do, but I also know players who feel equally inspired and don't care much for the subtle differences in the guitars regardless of what guitar they're playing, as long as they're in a general ball park of style/design, and they only own guitars of that one type too.