Alt 8 Recommended for High Gain Amps..why?

[Shinobi]

Mostly a lot of players are going back to a low output pup because todays amps are high gain. So moderate winds are being used (for clarity and tone)by more and more players....even in metal.

So why would the Alt 8 be recommended for High Gain amps. It seems like it would be better suited for low gain amps.

I know that I have a high gain amp and am using a C8 and it is pretty incredible sounding. But prior to having the DD in my ESP LTD, I had a CC in it. The CC has a higher DC resistance then a DD and it sounded better in the ESP I think then the DD.

I just wonder what the advantage is to having a C8 or Alt 8 in a high gain amp????

Thanks

 

[CaughtLikeFire]

Re: Alt 8 Recommended for High Gain Amps..why?

Mostly a lot of players are going back to a low output pup because todays amps are high gain. So moderate winds are being used (for clarity and tone)by more and more players....even in metal.

So why would the Alt 8 be recommended for High Gain amps. It seems like it would be better suited for low gain amps.

I know that I have a high gain amp and am using a C8 and it is pretty incredible sounding. But prior to having the DD in my ESP LTD, I had a CC in it. The CC has a higher DC resistance then a DD and it sounded better in the ESP I think then the DD.

I just wonder what the advantage is to having a C8 or Alt 8 in a high gain amp????

Thanks

the characteristics of the Alt 8 - tight bass, fat mids and high clarity- really come into play as you increase the gain. medium gain (hard classic rock) is great with the Alt 8 too although the overall tone is more modern than vintage. clean and dirty cleans are decent but not as good as lower output pups. I think the Alt 8 is recommended for hi gain amps because it really excels with them. it can definitely push a low gain preamp into overdrive faster if that's what you want, so I guess Duncan could have advertised it that way. thing is, if you have a low gain amp that you want to drive harder, you're probably looking for a classic rock tone which the Alt 8 does not have. A Custom or JB would be a much better choice just based on their overall tone.

regarding the use of high output pups with hi-gain amps, it's not a matter of pushing the preamp. once again, it's tone. For the most part, I don't understand the trend of low output pickups with hi-gain amps. if you take a PAF type pickup and plug into say, a DR or 5150 on the lead channel, it sounds like a clean tone with gain layered on top. it's not smooth/liquid at all like it should be for a good modern hi gain tone. Off the shelf Les Paul into a DR is a great example. Now, swap out the Burstbucker with a Custom (or JB/DD) and suddenly the tone is smoother. as you add on gain, the distortion doesn't get ragged. bass is tighter, high notes are smoother - the pup's "compression" that everyone refers too is what really improves the tone.

I can see how some of the pickups beyond say, the Duncan Distortion level of output, are overkill but a typical "hot" pickup (Custom or JB level, or Alt 8 which is really not much higher than a JB) is great in a hi gain amp

there are exceptions, sure. the EVH/78 I found out 1st hand is a huge exception, but then again, it's not as low output as a PAF.

 

[Shinobi]

Re: Alt 8 Recommended for High Gain Amps..why?

the characteristics of the Alt 8 - tight bass, fat mids and high clarity- really come into play as you increase the gain. medium gain (hard classic rock) is great with the Alt 8 too although the overall tone is more modern than vintage. clean and dirty cleans are decent but not as good as lower output pups. I think the Alt 8 is recommended for hi gain amps because it really excels with them. it can definitely push a low gain preamp into overdrive faster if that's what you want, so I guess Duncan could have advertised it that way. thing is, if you have a low gain amp that you want to drive harder, you're probably looking for a classic rock tone which the Alt 8 does not have. A Custom or JB would be a much better choice just based on their overall tone.

regarding the use of high output pups with hi-gain amps, it's not a matter of pushing the preamp. once again, it's tone. For the most part, I don't understand the trend of low output pickups with hi-gain amps. if you take a PAF type pickup and plug into say, a DR or 5150 on the lead channel, it sounds like a clean tone with gain layered on top. it's not smooth/liquid at all like it should be for a good modern hi gain tone. Off the shelf Les Paul into a DR is a great example. Now, swap out the Burstbucker with a Custom (or JB/DD) and suddenly the tone is smoother. as you add on gain, the distortion doesn't get ragged. bass is tighter, high notes are smoother - the pup's "compression" that everyone refers too is what really improves the tone.

I can see how some of the pickups beyond say, the Duncan Distortion level of output, are overkill but a typical "hot" pickup (Custom or JB level, or Alt 8 which is really not much higher than a JB) is great in a hi gain amp

there are exceptions, sure. the EVH/78 I found out 1st hand is a huge exception, but then again, it's not as low output as a PAF.

Fantastic explanation...unless somebody comes in and blows it out of the water.:yourock:

Seriously the EVH/78 is what like a 9 on the DC resistance side...like a "hot" PAF I guess.

But my understanding of the CC was it was supposed to be his pup...and it comes in around 14 DC.

The reason I asked about the Alt 8 and your response is very good, is that I put the C8 in my Baretta and swapped it out with the 598..which was swapped out from the DD, and prior to that had the CC and Schaller Golden 50 in it.

I have a high gain amp....and when I read about the Alternative 8 being good with a high gain amp...I drew a connection with it and the C8 that I am using in my Baretta.

To me the C8 if it is similar to an Alt 8 for output...which if you take the Alternative 8 and CC they are not close DC wise. My C8 sounds really good...but my playing style is similar to EVH/DeMartini/Lynch for Lead Guitar...and my rythyms are more like Metallica and Megadeth.

I am either always practicing the leads from my favorite lead players and when I switch over to do rythyms...I start playing stuff off of Kill Em All and RTL.

The C8 covers both ground with the different channels on my amp...but all have the gain cranked up...it's just the EQ setting on the amp that is changed for each channel. Hughes & Kettner Switchblades have a special "Gain Boost" that when the gain knob is turned past 9...it boost the dominant setting in the EQ for tone...it is pretty trick.

I need to post some sound bytes...just to lazy to record I guess. I would like to get some feed back on what it sounds like...sometimes I play stuff and wonder if it is only sounding good in my head.:lol:

I don't really know anything about pups (technical talk) just what sounds good and what I have read on this forum for my short period of time. But does putting a stronger mag (like an A8) change the DC resistance (windings do that right?) or how does it adjust the eq of the pup?????

People say a C8 sounds like a JB on roids...how can that be when the CC and JB are pretty far apart in the 14-16 DC resistance? How does an A8 effect the EQ of a unpotted 59 (Schaller Golden 50)?

Last question...how do you like the 78? I thought it was supposed to be like a CC????

Sorry have a lot of questions and you gave a good detailed answer.

 

[CaughtLikeFire]

Re: Alt 8 Recommended for High Gain Amps..why?

magnets don't change the resistance. they shape the EQ primarily. as far as output goes, I haven't heard a major difference between ceramic, A2, A4, and A5 in any of the swaps I've done. A8 has more audible output, probably due in part to its tendency to not compress like the others.

as far as the Alt 8 vs the Custom 8, the Alt 8 is much fatter and noticably higher output. more bass and more low mids. still has a nice mid hump though and the high end is still clear (nothing like an Invader). output is high judging by the way it pushes my clean channel but not night and day from say a JB. it's kinda strange because even though the Alt 8 is really powerful, it doesn't sound ultra compressed in the lows and mids or screechy in the high end. very open sounding and warm with a little gain. throw all your preconceived notions about high output pickups out the window before you play an Alt 8. the Alt 8 also has a more modern tone in the way it drives the amp which is great for some folks and not for others. I have one guitar set up for modern tones and one for vintage hard rock so that's not an issue for me.

as far as the C8 = JB on steroids, the strong upper mids and treble are what draw that comparison. the C8 seems to have a little more power than the regular Custom, at least when it comes to producing the frequencies that our ears use to perceive loudness, so it sounds like it has more output than a regular Custom, closer to a JB or DD.

I sold the EVH with my old MIJ Strat, it was white and tremspaced and I had nothing else to replace it with at the time. I really regret it. very open, very edgy. the mismatched coil design give it even more edge than a Pearly Gates (only slightly mismatched). output is perfect for classic rock and hard rock and not bad under hi gain either. I could see it working well in a lot of different guitars.

the EVH/78 is the VH1/VH2 sound by the way. the Custom Custom and the new Frankenstein pup are the WACF, Fair Warning, and 1984 tone. very mid heavy, not a ton of bass, more compressed than the '78.

as far as PAF pups with an A8, I haven't tried it. there have been several posts on this topic recently on Pearly Gates and '59s with A8 mags. some say it gives a sound close to Eddie's Ibanez Destroyer on You Really Got Me.

 

[Shinobi]

Re: Alt 8 Recommended for High Gain Amps..why?

magnets don't change the resistance. they shape the EQ primarily. as far as output goes, I haven't heard a major difference between ceramic, A2, A4, and A5 in any of the swaps I've done. A8 has more audible output, probably due in part to its tendency to not compress like the others.

as far as the Alt 8 vs the Custom 8, the Alt 8 is much fatter and noticably higher output. more bass and more low mids. still has a nice mid hump though and the high end is still clear (nothing like an Invader). output is high judging by the way it pushes my clean channel but not night and day from say a JB. it's kinda strange because even though the Alt 8 is really powerful, it doesn't sound ultra compressed in the lows and mids or screechy in the high end. very open sounding and warm with a little gain. throw all your preconceived notions about high output pickups out the window before you play an Alt 8. the Alt 8 also has a more modern tone in the way it drives the amp which is great for some folks and not for others. I have one guitar set up for modern tones and one for vintage hard rock so that's not an issue for me.

as far as the C8 = JB on steroids, the strong upper mids and treble are what draw that comparison. the C8 seems to have a little more power than the regular Custom, at least when it comes to producing the frequencies that our ears use to perceive loudness, so it sounds like it has more output than a regular Custom, closer to a JB or DD.

I sold the EVH with my old MIJ Strat, it was white and tremspaced and I had nothing else to replace it with at the time. I really regret it. very open, very edgy. the mismatched coil design give it even more edge than a Pearly Gates (only slightly mismatched). output is perfect for classic rock and hard rock and not bad under hi gain either. I could see it working well in a lot of different guitars.

the EVH/78 is the VH1/VH2 sound by the way. the Custom Custom and the new Frankenstein pup are the WACF, Fair Warning, and 1984 tone. very mid heavy, not a ton of bass, more compressed than the '78.

as far as PAF pups with an A8, I haven't tried it. there have been several posts on this topic recently on Pearly Gates and '59s with A8 mags. some say it gives a sound close to Eddie's Ibanez Destroyer on You Really Got Me.

Well I had the 598 in my 84 Retta...and man did it get the VH 1 & 2 Sounds all the way. As much as I like VH 1 it will always be the source of my inspiration along with Angus....I am partial to the guitar tone of WACF-Fair Warning...and they are my favorite Guitar Work from EVH.

So with your information it will help me decide...maybe I will just order another CC (Reverse Zebra) or an EVH to go in my Baretta. But I just got done praciticing my chops for 2 hours and the C8 just is amazing...its like I get to play all leads from the 80s...but they sound way more modern...no PAF sound to them.

There is a harmonic from the beginning of "Your In Trouble" by RATT..if you listen to the last harmonic played at the beginning of the song...it is so thick and fuzzy. The C8 actually produces that sound when I play...I couldn't quite ever get it with the DD in the guitar. I am getting it without a mixing board or Furman PQ3 Parametric EQ driving the mids before the amp too.

Alt 8 sounds like a fantastic pup too.

Thanks for your explanations.

 

[Rowan]

Re: Alt 8 Recommended for High Gain Amps..why?

I use an Alt 8 with an ENGL and the results are excellent. The pickup is aggressive sounding but still very clear, especially for chords. It sounds great on clean or high gain.