Amp in the room VS Modeler/Profiler into FRFR

IMENATOR

IMENATOR

Well-known member
What do you lose tone wise when you switch from real tube amp into using a Modeler/Profiler into FRFR cab (which nowdays sounds identical to the amp being miced? I never played a gig using a modeler/profiler into a FRFR, I just practice at low volume at home using a ToneX One pedal, and I don't have a FRFR cab at hand to try and compare.

Edit: And I don't play with any band at venues, just small gigs with friends where PA is very small, just enough for voice. I always carry a real amp.
 
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It depends on the FRFR, really. Some aren't really 'flat'. The best sounding one (under $1k) I've tried was a Fender FR-10, which sounded just like an actual amp in the room (with a Fractal FM3). Obviously, it isn't what you lose vs a tube amp...you go this route for what you gain vs a tube amp, which is instantaneous switching between many virtual rigs.
 
Punch. With a live amp you feel it tap your chest and blow your bell bottoms back. A live tube amp has spikes at various frequencies that give it character and stand out. With a modeler, it sounds like a really good produced recording of an amp, rather than being in the room with an amp. Both can sound good, and both can sound bad, but they are different.
 
I like my modelers for recording, but that's it. I've never used them for a gig based on other bands I've heard using Axe Fx, Kemper's, Quad Cortex's & the like..to my ears they lack something...dynamic's or presence or something. If you have a band playing at a gig w/ modelers that's immediately followed by the next band on the bill w/ tube amp's..that's when it hits you.

On the other hand I've played almost as many gigs with analog solid state heads/cabs as I have w/ tube heads...never found them to be lacking in any way in a live situation, though I'm sure there are tube purist's who will disagree.
 
For me I gained more than I lost. I currently have an hx stomp, uafx ruby and dream 65. I play them into the fx return of a marshall dsl 20 with a celestion frfr speaker. For me as a bedroom player it allows me to get a saturated sound at a manageable volume that is better than I could get with pedals and tube amps and without pissing off the family or neighbors.
 
CK71 said:
For me I gained more than I lost. I currently have an hx stomp, uafx ruby and dream 65. I play them into the fx return of a marshall dsl 20 with a celestion frfr speaker. For me as a bedroom player it allows me to get a saturated sound at a manageable volume that is better than I could get with pedals and tube amps and without pissing off the family or neighbors.
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Modeler into tube poweramp into a FRFR speaker? That is as hybrid as it can get :)
 
Phantasmagoria said:
I like my modelers for recording, but that's it. I've never used them for a gig based on other bands I've heard using Axe Fx, Kemper's, Quad Cortex's & the like..to my ears they lack something...dynamic's or presence or something. If you have a band playing at a gig w/ modelers that's immediately followed by the next band on the bill w/ tube amp's..that's when it hits you.
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Maybe in a small theatre because you are still earring the amp but no in a big arena where 100% of the sound is coming from the mic (as in a record).
 
if there are two guitar players on stage, ones direct and ones using a good amp micd, i can tell. better or worse is preference, but i know what i like
 
IMENATOR said:
What do you lose tone wise when you switch from real tube amp into using a Modeler/Profiler into FRFR cab (which nowdays sounds identical to the amp being miced? I never played a gig using a modeler/profiler into a FRFR, I just practice at low volume at home using a ToneX One pedal, and I don't have a FRFR cab at hand to try and compare.
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IMHO the perception is coming from earring the amp/cab in the room vs earring the amp thru a microphone/studio monitors in the room.
If you record a tube amp and a modeler, then listen to the recordings thru a pair of studio monitors I bet you will not loose any tone.

As Mincer said, Fender FR10/FR12 sounds pretty good and gives an "amp in the room" feel. But your are still earring a "recorded" tone (with microphone), not the raw tone of a guitar cabinet (with all the frequencies bouncing on the walls/ceiling/floor). You don't lose tone wise, you are just earring the "next step" of a live/recording chain. You may like it or you may not. It's a different experience and is more fun when you add backing tracks as the modeler's sound is more "glued" with the recorded parts, you feel you are in the band.

When I'm jamming with friends, I bring my modeler and we are all going direct to mixer and powered PA speakers/subs. Fun, not too loud, well balanced, no level war and minimum unload/load time.

Real amps and modelers are different tools, each with its pros and cons. It's not one or the other IMHO. I need/play one of each (even two/three of each).
 
i do like the fender fr12, great box. a few friends that are all digi use em and i think its been an improvement over all the other stuff they are using.
 
jeremy said:
if there are two guitar players on stage, ones direct and ones using a good amp micd, i can tell. better or worse is preference, but i know what i like
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Were you putting the amp backstage where you heard it only in your monitors/IEM?
If you here the amp just a bit it will distort the result.
 
i was in the audience in the specific instance i was talking about, amp was on stage, but the venue was loud enough and i was far enough back, i dont know if i was hearing any amp sound.

in one of my bands, the other guitar player uses a headrush and i use my old deluxe reverb with a mic. we are all using iem, running into a mackie dl32s with all inputs, then from there to the foh mixer so we have full control of the stage mix. he usually uses a frfr speaker on stage for whatever reason, but he does have sound coming off the stage as well. i will fully admit im biased, but even sound guys tell me how much better my rig sounds and cuts through a mix. i running the amp on 3 with a touch of reverb, so its clean, typically with two od pedals and an analog delay.
 
If you're the one using the amp, I think you can definitely tell. I'd be surprised if you don't. Especially when those guitar-dedicated FR FR cabs are only 1x12's or 2x12's at most.

I think recorded or live going through a PA, the digital stuff is fantastic.

*EDIT* that's me assuming you're comparing the FR FR cab to a 100W or 50W tube head and a 4x12 cab.
 
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i 100% agree that those two ratings are not the same for whatever reason. but 22w vs 1000w... even if the 1000w is 90% over rated, its still 100w vs my 22w. again, its not volume, its something about frequency response and cutting through the mix of a live band. the headrush is too polished or something. usually this is a band with two full drumsets, bass, two guitars, and keyboard with real b3 and leslie along with clav and a digital keyboard for piano sounds and other textures. weve had the bassist, the other guitarist, and keyboards go direct so only the drums and my amp were actually producing volume. sounds much better with the b3 and leslie :D
 
I will say that the Headrush isn't really in the same league as a Fractal or Kemper...with modeling you really get what you pay for.
 
For me a modeler can be cool for some things but will never replace a good real Tube Amp. I play mostly modern worship stuff now, and some sound guys will have convulsions if you show up with am amp. If I can work with them, I 90% of the time can use my amp. I can get solid tone with several of my rigs at very low volumes, so it's not an issue with on stage volume. I know exactly what my rig sounds like bring a mic and stand so it shouldn't be an issue.
This is from last Tuesday night no PA 2 acoustic player a guy with a Casio board running the internal speakers and me. Here I'm running my PRS Custom 50 head on a Mesa Wide body open back 1/12 here so--.
 
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