Analyzing music

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Warheart

New member
I was wondering if someone could help me with my understanding of music..
I've been trying to analyze a few bach pieces, as well as other songs...anything that changes key/modulates.
My question is:

How do I figure out what chords would work under a lead?

For instance if I played this as eighth notes on the D string:

D-7-9-10-r-

the notes A B C and then a rest.

I'm assuming I could play an Am and F chords, and this would serve different functions in each one, I understand that.
But How important is it that these notes from Am and F are on the down beats?

If I played this:

D-5-7-9-10

the notes G A B C
I know this would open up a few more possibilites, such as Am7, but should I use this run on a G or an Am? or does it not matter?


I understand the theory of modulation, but its one thing to take a group of chords and have it resolve, but its another to have a melody line that bridges the gap.

Any help is much appreciated!
 
Re: Analyzing music

Goodness, these questions are hard to answer in a satisfying manner! The short answer is that everything is good in rock n' roll.

If you truly want an understanding of Bach's methods, though, I'd recommend picking up something like Walter Piston's texts on harmony and counterpoint, which explains all you ask and more. These questions are a lot less straightforward that you'd think.

I'll say two things though: The passing tone, with one or more tone filling a gap between two chord tones usually put in metrically strong places, is not the only way to account for non-chord tones. You also have things like the appogiatura, which is a case where a chord change is accompanied by one or more metrically strong notes that do not belong with the working chord, but is subsequently resolved (traditionally down a second) to a chord tone.

Secondly, it is not at all IMPORTANT that the chord tones come at downbeats (or "metrically accentuated beats", if you want to be fancy), but it will create a different effect if they are not. The best recommendation I can come with is to try working with both, listen to it, and hear what you like. It should also be mentioned that metric accentuation is not inherent in the meter, that is that there is no reason why beat 1 and 3 in a 4/4 based groove (or whatever) has to be accented. There's a lot to try out there, but if you are so inclined such a study can be very rewarding.
 
Re: Analyzing music

JohnJohn said:
Depends on the tone and mood you're trying to set IMO.

You can try working off the relative minor, but you have to watch the passing tones. Pedal point or chord tones could help creating something that flows but still stands apart.
Click to expand...

The relative minor of...Am?

Can you give me an example of tone and mood? How does on quantize that?

If I play just 2 notes, A and C, If I play that over Am, its going to sound Aeolian.
If I play that over F, its going to sound Lydian?

Is that what you mean?
 
Re: Analyzing music

@JohnJohn I understand what you mean, I just wish there was a way to qualify these moods & tones. It's probably going to take me some work to get it where I want it regardless.

Like, how would you describe the differences in those 3?
I played it lower, I played it higher, I played it in both places.

That doesn't really give you much description to work with, ya know?
 
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Re: Analyzing music

Sirion said:
Goodness, these questions are hard to answer in a satisfying manner! The short answer is that everything is good in rock n' roll.

If you truly want an understanding of Bach's methods, though, I'd recommend picking up something like Walter Piston's texts on harmony and counterpoint, which explains all you ask and more. These questions are a lot less straightforward that you'd think.

I'll say two things though: The passing tone, with one or more tone filling a gap between two chord tones usually put in metrically strong places, is not the only way to account for non-chord tones. You also have things like the appogiatura, which is a case where a chord change is accompanied by one or more metrically strong notes that do not belong with the working chord, but is subsequently resolved (traditionally down a second) to a chord tone.

Secondly, it is not at all IMPORTANT that the chord tones come at downbeats (or "metrically accentuated beats", if you want to be fancy), but it will create a different effect if they are not. The best recommendation I can come with is to try working with both, listen to it, and hear what you like. It should also be mentioned that metric accentuation is not inherent in the meter, that is that there is no reason why beat 1 and 3 in a 4/4 based groove (or whatever) has to be accented. There's a lot to try out there, but if you are so inclined such a study can be very rewarding.
Click to expand...

I'll have to check out those two books you mentioned. Should be a good read, and hopefully some if not all of it can be applied to modern day music!

I was under the impression that in 4/4, beats 1 and 3 were the strongest, and if you deviated from that, it was then "Up Beat"?

A lot of this fails for me when I ask myself this question:
How would I define this to someone else? I think I need to beef up my understanding of music theory anyways, hopefully get some clarity as to what I've been doing all these years!
 
Re: Analyzing music

yeah dude take a music theory class


the short answer is this--triads are built off of root, third, and 5th--of course 7th chords also have the 7th, so technically any chord in the key that has 1 of those notes in it will work under it. Classical composers also used the 6th above the root on a lot of downbeats, so that would also be acceptable

Also, there are 3 types of modulation--phrase, common chord, and chromatic. I'd read up on all of them. As far as changing keys in a melody, well, it only takes 1 accidental to imply a new key, the main thing after that is just putting chord tones (or inversions thereof) on strong beats
 
Re: Analyzing music

I know a fair bit of theory, I know all the modes over the entire neck, I know how to build a lot of different chords and all that. I have studied 3 different books on modulation.
I can tell from look at the chords and notes in a song what key its in but what I'm lacking is the practical application.

Basically using accidentals to change key has been baffling me.
I feel like I'm getting locked into scales and don't know how to bridge the gap.
I'll have to post the examples from what I'm looking at, its basically the first four measures of the Double Violin Concerto by Bach.
I can clearly see that it starts in D harmonic minor, but it uses f# and g# to make a transition to A minor I believe?
I'll have to post the example here somehow later tonight.
 
Re: Analyzing music

Warheart said:
How do I figure out what chords would work under a lead?
Click to expand...

you have it backwards i reckon....you need to work out the chord structure first and add the melody line after....thats how bach did it.
So...you say you understand modulations and related keys. Use the related chords to get you from one key to another, then use the corresponding arpeggios/scales to create the melodic line.
I teach at a conservatorium, so if you want any more in depth or detailed stuff, shoot me a PM.
 
Re: Analyzing music

Warheart said:
I know a fair bit of theory, I know all the modes over the entire neck, I know how to build a lot of different chords and all that. I have studied 3 different books on modulation.
I can tell from look at the chords and notes in a song what key its in but what I'm lacking is the practical application.

Basically using accidentals to change key has been baffling me.
I feel like I'm getting locked into scales and don't know how to bridge the gap.
I'll have to post the examples from what I'm looking at, its basically the first four measures of the Double Violin Concerto by Bach.
I can clearly see that it starts in D harmonic minor, but it uses f# and g# to make a transition to A minor I believe?
I'll have to post the example here somehow later tonight.
Click to expand...

Its the accidentals that are signposts to tell you what key hes in...but for your application it would be better to take it a step futher and do a full chordal analaysis of the piece in question. That way, you can improvise or compose using the original structure quite easily.
 
Re: Analyzing music

gibson175 said:
you have it backwards i reckon....you need to work out the chord structure first and add the melody line after....thats how bach did it.
So...you say you understand modulations and related keys. Use the related chords to get you from one key to another, then use the corresponding arpeggios/scales to create the melodic line.
I teach at a conservatorium, so if you want any more in depth or detailed stuff, shoot me a PM.
Click to expand...

Dammit as soon as i pressed the quote button you said what I was gonna say

without seeing it, my GUESS is that the G# is used as a leading tone into AM, and the F# is just a passing tone, but there could be a secondary chord in there
 
Re: Analyzing music

Thanks for all the help guys!

Here's the example I was talking about.

In the first measure, its just a run in D minor, then an A7 chord if I join the last 2 beats together.

The second measure is D7, followed by some passing notes I guess? I'm not sure how I would qualify the B, A, and G notes there. I know it can't be D minor cause thats supposed to have B flat?

The third measure starts with E dim, then I'm not sure, I was thinking an A chord with C# in the root.

But yeah the part I was looking at the was the 4th measure with the Gb/F# and the Ab/G#.

So from what you guys are saying that transition uses the Melodic Minor scale, which just happens to be one I haven't played around with a whole lot.

But, you can just switch from D minor to A Melodic minor without ANY difficulty it seems? Granted, it is starting the A melodic minor on the D still, but, I couldn't figure this one out at all. This goes completely against my idea that you couldn't have one sharp without the other.

IE: Normally If I have a G#, F and C must also be sharp.

This is probably going to make it hard to figure out what scales are being used outside of the norm.

From then on, the 6th measure would be a D major scale? Like, is there enough information to show you what this is?

Thanks again, and I'll have to go research that melodic minor scale! The idea of going up one way and down another is what deterred me from it in the first place I think!
 
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