any other basic clean BF twin style amps out there?

[Imp]

Re: any other basic clean BF twin style amps out there?

Sovtek Mig-50 or Mig-100? very well built, clean amps.. almost too clean IMO hehe

tom

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: any other basic clean BF twin style amps out there?

what's the diff between black and silver besides power? I'm pretty sure the BF amps have a smoother more pleasing breakup? And the components in BF amps were much higher quality right?

The thing too, is that a BF Twin sounds really sweet at 4-6 on the volume (scorching loud!) because it's closer to breakup than a 100 watt or higher silverface. Eventhough it's still squeaky clean, the tubes are able to deliver more character than when they're not even close to working hard in a SF.

The early series SF Fenders were fine and it was purely cosmetics...Later though,Fender CBS added oscillation caps to the output tubes,changed output tube plate voltages,transformer specs changed,the way the leads were placed within the chassis caused alot of problems with hum,oscillation,and antenna like problems...A 67-68 early SF model is fine...Later SF amps can be converted to BF specs,but you need to know which amp you're getting also...Some of the later SF amps sound great though also and it depends on things like....What model,what tubes are in it,has it been maintained,does it need new caps,what transformers are in the amp,what speakers....

I always tell people to trust their ears though because I might love the sound of one amp,and you might totally hate it...It's always best if you can plug in and play and listen and see what you think?

Remember this always! "If it sounds good,it is good!" :wink:

 

[Jeff Seal]

Re: any other basic clean BF twin style amps out there?

what's the diff between black and silver besides power? I'm pretty sure the BF amps have a smoother more pleasing breakup? And the components in BF amps were much higher quality right?

The thing too, is that a BF Twin sounds really sweet at 4-6 on the volume (scorching loud!) because it's closer to breakup than a 100 watt or higher silverface. Eventhough it's still squeaky clean, the tubes are able to deliver more character than when they're not even close to working hard in a SF.

..wow, I thought for sure someone would chime in with the answer to this one....apparently not... so...

The Blackface (BF) era of the Fenders are considered by many, including myself, to be the absolute finest amps ever made... They were simply designed and their tone is the benchmark for "clean" tones...(you will find few who will disagree..) Fender's of this era are predominantly known for the "inability to overdrive" as stratdeluxer97 stated....(the only exception would be the Super Reverb..). Keep in mind, when these amps were made, "distortion" was considered a very bad thing... "Lower quality" amps distorted at the drop of a hat, usually really badly... and Fender was all about "very loud cleans" and they succeeded in this area (obviously) quite well!

The Silverface (SF) amps capitalized on the BF's "strengths" and most were fitted with higher wattage plate resistors for the 12ax7's...(which was an improvement), but in the process of trying to "fix what wasn't broken" they also decided to attempt to improve the design by redesigning the bias supply configuration...(mistake #1) and the "mass production approach" of thinking the original design was so stable that the care taken in the BF Fender's was disposable.....(basically someone, somewhere decided that the circuit was just connect this to that and it's guaranteed to work!... mistake #2)
So, the SF series were nothing more than proven designs wired so poorly, that almost anyone who could solder built them.. The results were so "varied" that Fender engineering had to come up with a way to insure parasitic oscillations and the like were eliminated to insure "reasonable consistency" while the amps were being mass produced...
The result was groud wire's wrapped around bundles of lead wire's to insure "field integrity" or more simply the easiest way to stabilize a circuit without taking the time to "isolate" the internal wires like the BF's did.
In the end, the SF's almost...(note almost!) were fully functional, but lacked the tone the BF series had...because so many "safeguards" were put into place to accomodate really bad "lead dress" (the way the wires are "arranged" that go from the tube sockets to the turret board...I know it seems really simple....but it is crucial!)

The vast majority of SF Fender's are great amps too, but on an individual basis....some are great, most are decent, some never left the factory working right in the first place......

Fwiw....

Jeff Seal

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: any other basic clean BF twin style amps out there?

..wow, I thought for sure someone would chime in with the answer to this one....apparently not... so...

The Blackface (BF) era of the Fenders are considered by many, including myself, to be the absolute finest amps ever made... They were simply designed and their tone is the benchmark for "clean" tones...(you will find few who will disagree..) Fender's of this era are predominantly known for the "inability to overdrive" as stratdeluxer97 stated....(the only exception would be the Super Reverb..). Keep in mind, when these amps were made, "distortion" was considered a very bad thing... "Lower quality" amps distorted at the drop of a hat, usually really badly... and Fender was all about "very loud cleans" and they succeeded in this area (obviously) quite well!

The Silverface (SF) amps capitalized on the BF's "strengths" and most were fitted with higher wattage plate resistors for the 12ax7's...(which was an improvement), but in the process of trying to "fix what wasn't broken" they also decided to attempt to improve the design by redesigning the bias supply configuration...(mistake #1) and the "mass production approach" of thinking the original design was so stable that the care taken in the BF Fender's was disposable.....(basically someone, somewhere decided that the circuit was just connect this to that and it's guaranteed to work!... mistake #2)
So, the SF series were nothing more than proven designs wired so poorly, that almost anyone who could solder built them.. The results were so "varied" that Fender engineering had to come up with a way to insure parasitic oscillations and the like were eliminated to insure "reasonable consistency" while the amps were being mass produced...
The result was groud wire's wrapped around bundles of lead wire's to insure "field integrity" or more simply the easiest way to stabilize a circuit without taking the time to "isolate" the internal wires like the BF's did.
In the end, the SF's almost...(note almost!) were fully functional, but lacked the tone the BF series had...because so many "safeguards" were put into place to accomodate really bad "lead dress" (the way the wires are "arranged" that go from the tube sockets to the turret board...I know it seems really simple....but it is crucial!)

The vast majority of SF Fender's are great amps too, but on an individual basis....some are great, most are decent, some never left the factory working right in the first place......

Fwiw....

Jeff Seal

Great post Jeff....Thought I covered alot of what you reinforced in my own post,but you did it more thoroughly brother....

 

[the guy who invented fire]

Re: any other basic clean BF twin style amps out there?

I agree...Jeff nailed it, as did John! I love my SF Twin Reverb, but keep in mind I did a few things to get it where it is today!

I know people that will tell you that there are no good SF Fender amps, and the sad part is that they belive that...

John said it best when he said "If it sounds good, then it's good"!

 

[Quencho092]

Re: any other basic clean BF twin style amps out there?

..wow, I thought for sure someone would chime in with the answer to this one....apparently not... so...
.....

Fwiw....

Jeff Seal

Amazing post!

And as for blackfaces not being able to be driven- in the lower wattage models such as the Deluxe or Princeton would blackfaces have a smoother sounding breakup because of the relatively scooped mids compared to tweeds?