Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talisman)

[Dave Locher]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ5UA1rn_V4

I have been watching a lot of Catalinbread videos lately - they are outstanding pedal demos, the guy is a good player, and he drops a lot of useful and/or interesting information (even if he does talk way too long in some of them).
I am not in the market for a reverb pedal, but the title of this one caught my eye "Talisman Plate Reverb into cranked Marshall" and I think I would love the pedal. I keep trying delays but I think what I really wanted all along was a reverb with the "pre delay" control!
My naive question is: are there any other reverb pedals with a similar set of features that might be less expensive and/or easier to find used that I could try to see if it is "my thing?" Catalinbread pedals are spendy new, seem to go for almost as much used as they cost new, and aren't exactly easy to find.

I know nearly nothing about reverb pedals. I did own a Tech 21 Boost RVB a couple years ago and on paper it seems like it would work because it also has a built-in volume/boost and a tone control, but it sounded like @$$ into my gainy amp and I dumped it. I suspect it's a combination of lacking the pre-delay control and just not being designed to run straight into an amp with overdrive? I don't want to run pedals in the loop and I really like the idea of getting a gain boost along with the added reverb since it would make an ideal solo boost. (I take a very minimalist approach to pedals. None or one is ideal, two is okay, three or more and I'm out.)

 

[NegativeEase]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

I use a Strymon Flint -on my board for the Tremelo -but it has a great reverb that I use if the backline amp I pick doesnt have reverb. -but it's an expensive pedal.

I prefer onboard spring tank reverb when available.

The TC Electronic Hall of Fame and EHX Holy Grail are probably the 2 most popular reverbs -and not expensive

 

[Aceman]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

Reverb pedal into the front of an amp can be a sketchy affair. Always best in the loop.

Think about it the same as any other effect: What if I put gain through a [phase/delay/comp/etc] vs what if I put [phase/delay/comp/etc] through gain.

The gain will make EVERYTHING louder - including the reverb. I'll generally recommend dirt pedal into reverb pedal into amp. That said - results vary so give it a try.

 

[LLL]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

All time-based effects sound best after the amp (i.e. studio, slaving) if you're going for "purity of repeats/echo".

The main reason reverb (or other time-based effect) usually sounds sketchy in front of a highly distorted amp is because the repeats or echo is also distorted by the amp's preamp (along with your normal guitar signal); thus making the effect part of the tone sound mushy or indistinct. Clean amps can get away with it, though. And of course, if you apply reverb to a DAW guitar track or after an amp a la slaving, the repeats or echo is clean (not distorted); making it clear and audibly "legible".

Running it through an amp FX loop helps pretty good (bypasses the preamp), but it's still getting colored by the PI (if pre-PI MV a la Marshall 2203/4) and/or power tubes.

The Catalinbread Talisman has always intrigued me (I have an EHX Cathedral and numerous DAW verb plugins) because it is one of these...



(legendary EMT 140 Plate Verb found on countless albums)

...in a stompbox sized enclosure. Sounds damn good too.

I don't know how well the Talisman would perform in front of a high gain amp... maybe there are vids on YouTube? I seem to recall Mr. Gee (Catalinbread) running one in front of a plexi Marshall, but can't say for sure.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

Um...guys...the video link I posted in my first post IS the pedal designer running it straight into the front of a Marshal Plexi with the volume on 6 or 7!
I figure if the man who created the pedal went to the trouble of demonstrating how well it works that way then, you know, it works that way.

What I don't know is what specific traits MAKE it work well. Maybe the pre-delay control, maybe the high-pass control, or maybe it was voiced to work like this in the first place?
https://youtu.be/mQ5UA1rn_V4
The part that intrigued me most is when he turns up the pedal volume to boost the amp's gain. Can't do that in the loop!

 

[Boogie Bill]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

I always run my delays and reverb through the loop. Reverb into a distorted amp sounds wrong to me.

Bill

 

[LLL]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

Um...guys...the video link I posted in my first post IS the pedal designer running it straight into the front of a Marshal Plexi with the volume on 6 or 7!
I figure if the man who created the pedal went to the trouble of demonstrating how well it works that way then, you know, it works that way.

What I don't know is what specific traits MAKE it work well. Maybe the pre-delay control, maybe the high-pass control, or maybe it was voiced to work like this in the first place?
https://youtu.be/mQ5UA1rn_V4
The part that intrigued me most is when he turns up the pedal volume to boost the amp's gain. Can't do that in the loop!

Didn't watch the vid in post... but my memory served me well. :lol:

Yes, pre-delay is incredibly important for keeping things "clean". For example, on VH1 (reverb-speaking here), Ed's straight guitar on the L, piped out to an approx 100ms "pre-delayed" (prolly with an Eventide H910, because the real EMT140 has no pre-delay) fully-washed (100% effect in other words) EMT 140 plate verb on the R... keeping the overall tone "clean" and not turning into reverb wash mush (that's the reverb secret there!). Obviously, if Ted and Don were to have taken Ed's dry tone and applied the same amount (totally drenched) of EMT140 on top, the resulting tone would be all reverb wash, and Ed's guitar tone would be an indistinct sloppy mess.

Would pre-delay help in front of a distorted amp? Perhaps, but remember any signal going into the amp is going to have the amp's gain stages applied to it; regardless of how many more milliseconds it takes to get there. I'll be honest: my EHX Cathedral has pre-delay, but I've never once put it in front of a distorted amp (always after the amp via slaving).

Then again, a Plexi (what I use as well) doesn't have a ton of distortion. Might be just enough distortion to play crunchier parts, but not enough distortion to really F things up with a reverb out front. Hell, I should try my EHX Cathedral out front of my plexi for fun and see how it performs...

I would say overall, the "mix" setting is the most important (and obvious) setting as far as keeping things "clean" with a reverb out front.

I don't see the value in using a reverb pedal's gain to "boost" the amp; seems redundant (plenty of "normal" ways to do that with pedals dedicated to boosting)... but minor bonus I suppose.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

Holy Grail is voiced to work with front of amp as well. And it does quite well as long as you keep the effect low.

You can't have that spacey loud reverb with dirt in front of amp anyway. With right pedal it does work juicing up tone and bringing more to it.

 

[Aceman]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

Yes, pre-delay is incredibly important for keeping things "clean". For example, on VH1 (reverb-speaking here), Ed's straight guitar on the L, piped out to an approx 100ms "pre-delayed" (prolly with an Eventide H910, because the real EMT140 has no pre-delay) fully-washed (100% effect in other words) EMT 140 plate verb on the R... keeping the overall tone "clean" and not turning into reverb wash mush (that's the reverb secret there!). Obviously, if Ted and Don were to have taken Ed's dry tone and applied the same amount (totally drenched) of EMT140 on top, the resulting tone would be all reverb wash, and Ed's guitar tone would be an indistinct sloppy mess.

I think this is definitely an issue a LOT of people have trying to get a VH sound. There is a serious "straight/clean" signal going through there, and the verb signal is "on addition"

That leads to a distinct, but processed sound that we know/love. Not how most amps work. The guitar gets "farther" away.

TO do this with an FX unit in series, what you do is put some big reverb on, but set the mix low. You get more clean than verb signal, but the reverb is present.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

Holy Grail is voiced to work with front of amp as well. And it does quite well as long as you keep the effect low.

You can't have that spacey loud reverb with dirt in front of amp anyway. With right pedal it does work juicing up tone and bringing more to it.

The regular one-knob model, or the three knob version?

I don't want massive effect, justa little cream & sugar

 

[Little Pigbacon]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

Reverb pedal into the front of an amp can be a sketchy affair. Always best in the loop.

Unless it’s made to go in front of the amp.

https://www.catalinbread.com/index.php?category=all&product=topanga

 

[Jacew]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

The regular one-knob model, or the three knob version?

I don't want massive effect, justa little cream & sugar

I only have experience with the one knob version.

 

[Ben1962]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

Curious, why dont you like going into the loop? If you dont have 1 , I get it. But why else?

 

[Aceman]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

Holy Grail is voiced to work with front of amp as well. And it does quite well as long as you keep the effect low.

Can you show me documented evidence of that?

All reverbs would work into front well/better if set low.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

Curious, why dont you like going into the loop? If you dont have 1 , I get it. But why else?

Couple reasons. Mainly to keep things simple. I want to be able to kick it on for riffs & solos only, which would mean long send & return cables.
Also, my loop only seems to work well with some pedals and I never know before buying & trying which ones will or won't play nice. Seems about 1/3 do.
And in the case of the Talisman, it has a built-in preamp volume so it can also be a boost pedal. I boost gain, not volume. Hence, not in loop.

 

[Jacew]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

Can you show me documented evidence of that?

All reverbs would work into front well/better if set low.

Some better than others. Mooer Shimverb didn't work at all... Just useless without loop in any setting.

Holy Grail doesn't fare well with anything higher than instrument level input. I recall searching info why it's so picky and finding out it's designed with passive pickup output in mind.

I don't have sure evidence of that. Just know for experience it can get easily out of hand with more than modest instrument level input. And it does work really well in front of an amp.

 

[Ascension]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

I know nearly nothing about reverb pedals. I did own a Tech 21 Boost RVB a couple years ago and on paper it seems like it would work because it also has a built-in volume/boost and a tone control, but it sounded like @$$ into my gainy amp and I dumped it. I suspect it's a combination of lacking the pre-delay control and just not being designed to run straight into an amp with overdrive? I don't want to run pedals in the loop and I really like the idea of getting a gain boost along with the added reverb since it would make an ideal solo boost. (I take a very minimalist approach to pedals. None or one is ideal, two is okay, three or more and I'm out.)

If there is one I have never found it! To me reverb or delay run into the front of an over driven tube amp just sounds like crap. I always run time based effects in the loop if the amp has one and having a good loop is an absolute requirement on any amp i'm going to buy. It just will sound and feel much differently when you run the verb or delay AFTER the crunch! I'm primarily doing modern worship and having a good delay and reverb is a requirement if you are playing this stuff. A good inexpensive Digital Verb is the Digitec Polaria best so far I have found at the around $150 price point. Sounds as good as any I have tried in the front end also. Don't understand your reluctance to run in the loop. Just keep your cable runs at around 10 feet or so from your amp and use a good quality cable.

 

[Dave Locher]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

Loop reluctance is pedals sound lousy in my amp's loop more often than they sound good. Some of them drop the volume when kicked on, some just sound bad. The Tech 21 Boost RVB and Boost DLA both worked well in the loop but then I could not use the boost to bump my preamp gain.

In a perfect world I would have one pedal do both (boost preamp gain and add a bit'o reverb). May have to bite the bullet and buy a Talisman just to try it out.

 

[Francois]

Re: Any other reverb pedals that can run into the front of an overdriven amp? (Talism

I have been watching a lot of Catalinbread videos lately - they are outstanding pedal demos, the guy is a good player, and he drops a lot of useful and/or interesting information

I agree !!! I also would like to get the Catalinbread pedals : Echorec (!!!) Dirty Lttle Secret (!!!), Katzenkönig (!!!) and more (RAH, Naga Viper or Sabbracadabra...).
But I only have the Adineko so far.
You are right they are spendy new and not so much second hand available...

And I agree with this comment on Youtube : "If the chief designer plays like this, then you know..."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIQp1WRXP8s&start_radio=1&list=RDLIQp1WRXP8s
Nice video !