Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

Phantasmagoria

watch where you point that sabre
My band just did a cover of Motorhead's Deaf Forever (from Orgasmatron) for a Motorhead tribute CD featuring a bunch of other local bands...

Recorded at a friend's home studio and then mixed/mastered by another friend...






Pretty 'bare-bones' recording ~ one rhythm guitar track/one lead, one vocal track (two for the chorus).

Earlier mixes sounded really thin/crisp/trebly/anaemic (awful) to me and this one I'm okay with, but a couple of my bandmates (singer & drummer) say it's too full/muddy ...they want it brighter/crisper. So is it my ears ...or are they right?
 
Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

IMO, the bassist will be happier with that mix than the guitarist. :D The whole thing sounds like it was recorded in large room ... from the other end of the room. Far too much wall reflection and/or reverb. Not nearly "in your face" enough.

Forum member Left_Hand_Strat is a Mötorhead obsessive. I suspect that he might award your recording a Godzilla face palm.
 
Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

Ok...thanks for the feedback/opinions guys :)

(...and for the kind words TheLivingDead :) )

@Funkfingers: We reworked the song & added that melody line to the chorus....so yeah, it's pretty different from the original, but that's what we were aiming for...


I'm probably going over to this friend's place later today along with the others in the band and we'll try and do something else with the mix. Any idea's on what (basically) needs to be corrected (More mids/less echo) more drums/snare? Any idea's would be welcome...
 
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Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

it sounds a bit muffled.

I would suggest to use a high pass filter at 60Hz in all the tracks, and add a bit of high end as well.
 
Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind and suggest it to him.. :)
 
Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

A bit thin to my ears. not enough bass and kick drum /bottom end.
If you're after that vocal effect with the echo, bring up the dry a bit more up front. Plenty of highs in it for me and i've got old ears missing top end.
 
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Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

My metal band used to do a cover of this song in the late 80's.

First off, good job on the song. Here are my suggestions:

1). More kick (the song is a stomper... so spend some time getting the 1 & the 3 to sound HUGE)
2). Turn off bathroom effect on vox if you can
3). Find out what is wrong with the bass track... something is way off there
4). Verses seem a bit rushed... could the guitar be played a bit more succinctly (without ghost notes)?
5). Snare needs more crack
6). Hi Hat (sounds very good) overpowers the crash cymbals and ride (Why is edge of ride used on chorus... should be the bell)
7). Static-X style call and response backing vox should have some grit to it
8). guitar solo needs much more low mids... rhythm track has a tick too much lower mids

Edited to add - Be respectful of your bandmate's opinions during mixing... they might not know what they are talking about and could possibly have a tin ear.

Even if they don't know anything about mixing and have horrible suggestions, you should still smile and treat them as equally as possible.

Tempers can fly during the anxiety ridden mix phase... it's charged with a ton of expectation and emotional energy, so ride it out like a surfer does a big wave (be ABOVE it all).

It's a great opportunity to bond with band members and achieve a cohesion and mind meld that can glue you together tightly.

Always start with a mix that is ONLY drums, bass and vocals... add in the guitar when the drum+bass+vox mix sounds great on everyone's cars, stereos and iPods (requires at least two sessions to mix every song).

Mixing sessions are like good meals... you can come early and spend time getting the meal together but the actual "eating" cannot go on for more than two hours. You can gather after the "dinner" and talk shop and discuss in a polite and respectable manner the thoughts from the evening's "meal".

Do NOT exhaust your ears before the mix. If you have a gig the night before, make sure everyone is wearing extra ear protection. Don't let the drummer near his drums the day of mixing without ear protection... he won't be able to properly hear high and upper midrange frequencies for hours. Don't stand in front of your cranked guitar cabinet the day of mixing without ear protection... be jealously protective of your hearing the night before and the day of the mix.

Use a monitor amplifier that is not ridiculously high watt and drive it a bit. Fancy and overpowered monitor amplifiers are not related to ANYONE'S end-user listener experience... harsh frequencies, mud, trash, excessive dynamic range and odd order harmonics are usually downplayed with these expensive systems at recording studios. You take your mix home and listen to it on a normal system and the bad qualities of the mix are more inyerface. The monitoring amplifier should be tuned to the size of the mixing suite.
 
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Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

Thanks Zen ..Lots of useful insight there. I'll definately keep it all in mind if/when we do decide to mix again. I just got back from my friend's place (guy who mixed it) with my band's singer, but unfortunately all we did there was get really drunk and listen to the song & a whole lot of other metal in general...so it will have to be some other time :)

@ GoldenVulture: That's really how my ears hear it too. One of the earlier mixes was a fair bit deeper/thicker/fuller, but everyone (except me) thought it was way too dark & muddy so it was dropped.. and yes, the echo on the vocals is a bit excessive, but they sound better with it than without..
 
Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

yes, the echo on the vocals is a bit excessive but they sound better with it than without.

Never a good sign.

In a song, the lead vocal is the single most important element. You should not be hiding it in excessive processing. (Unless, that is, you happen to be Trent Reznor!)

If the vocals sound weak without reverb and delay, this probably means that they are weak. The professional solution is to overdub new vocals.
 
Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

Ok...here's an earlier mix (the first mix actually) that was done by the guy who's studio we recorded at. The vocals are squeaky clean here. They're not weak, just sort of stand apart from the rest of the mix too much/sound a bit too "stark"..

Personally, after a few listens I thought this one sounded pretty good overall, not crazy about the guitar tone (it's ok) & the lead-out solo at the end was buried/drowned in reverb for some reason (though I love the tone of the main solo here...), but somehow no one else was crazy about it (they thought it sounded too processed/polished) & the drummer did'nt like the drum sound for some reason.

 
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Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

Now it's definitely better. I'd still add some high end to the guitars.

And it still needs more thump in the kick badly :)

You are on the right track!
 
Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

zenmindbeginner's post should be printed out and posted in everyone's studio.

Most times, mixing is not about adding stuff in, but knowing where to CUT and CARVE instruments so that they fit together with every instrument occupying a specific space. Listen to your favourite mixes in a similar style over and over and compare them to yours, this will be very helpful.

Remember not to go overboard with the limiting/level on the mix, so you have someplace to go when mastering later. And remember that only ONE thing can be the loudest thing in the mix at any time; find the focal point of your song and mix the dynamics AROUND that point.

There is no right or wrong in mixing, so mixing on a forum by committee is just as useless as mixing by committee with your band. Mixing is a COMPROMISE. The definition of compromise is, ALL PARTIES ARE EQUALLY DISSATISFIED WITH THE END RESULT. :)

Finally, there is a reason that a good engineer will charge $1,000/day; mixing is HARD WORK and takes a lot of practice to get right.
 
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Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

The version in post #11 is way more entertaining.

IMO, the reason why the drums are not stonking enough is because they are following the guitar and bass rather than grabbing the song by the scruff of its neck and driving things along. More aggression required.

The bass guitar sounds like a preset on a digital synth keyboard. There is no clearly defined attack to the individual notes. I love the James Jamerson sound but this song is no place for it.
 
Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

Thanks guys, I'm sure we could've done a lot better, since the quality of the raw tracks we recorded was pretty good & I appreciate all your tips/suggestions. But unfortunately not being able to be around when the thing was being mixed was a big factor/problem for us (Both the guys who did the mixes are in other bands & busy with other stuff and pretty much mixed it in their spare time as a favour to us..)

Personally I like the mix in Post #11 best too (did'nt really when I first heard it, but it's grown on me...) The guy who mixed it plays in a metal band himself, owns a small but pretty well equipped studio & also runs an audio engineering class here. From a technical standpoint, his mix probably sounds more professional (the problem was everyone was unhappy with the sound of their individual instruments in the mix).

So far, we're all equally dissatisfied with the first mix....muffled and all lol, so that's probably what will end up being sent in...
 
Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

everyone was unhappy with the sound of their individual instruments in the mix.

This is entirely normal. Every band member wants his or her contribution to sound fabulous. Unfortunately, by definition, this means that every band member has lost sight of the overall goal. Some times, it is necessary to allow one's own contribution to be less than stellar in order for the combined parts to hang together to the best effect.
 
Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

Yes, I realize that now..that's why I said it had grown on me. My initial response to it was that I really did'nt care for the guitar sound, (among other things). But later, looking at it in a bigger context & with more objective listening it started to sound better & better..


@Twilight: replied..and thanks! :)
 
Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

boost the kick drum at 60hz. roll off anything above 100 hz.
Boost the bass gtr at 100hz and roll off anything above 150.
Boost the snare at 150hz and roll off anything above and below.
Pan the drum overheads hard right and left.
Roll off the guitar under 100hz and also make a dip at 1300 hz. If you want a bit more cut, work around the 800hz area for treble detail.
If you want to double track it, pan hard left and right.
Remove all the reverb from the vocals and keep it centered. Make a spike at around 1300hz so you can hear him more clearly, move the spike until you are happy.
After you have mixed al this with no reverbs.....
Duplicate the vocal track onto a separate channel with no 1300hz spike. Send this channel 100% to an auxiliary reverb in stereo. Mix this channel in as your vocal reverb.
 
Re: Bandmate disagreement...is this a muddy mix/master?

pretty neat, especially considering how it was recorded and 1 main guitar! I like how it turned out.

oh - just went back and listened to post #11 - much better! (like 100 times)
 
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