Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

[BSting]

Probably an old question but I'm new here.

SD continues to advertise improved sustain with certain pickups and I don't understand how sustain can be affected since the pickup does not control the duration of the string's vibration. When it's over, it's over.

The only way would be if the pickup compressed the signal. Greater output would not, since you would just turn down your amp to achieve the same acoustic level, so, has anybody tested this and can explain?

Does the output envelope of pickups i.e. level vs. decay time, change with different types of pickups?

 

[STRATDELUXER97]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

Basically any given pickup will have an overall effect on the guitar's sustain because the pickups are what take the string vibration and convert it over to what you hear coming out of your amp..The stronger the magnetic field is,due to magnet strength,windings,etc..is going to make a difference in what the pickups read with a vibrating string...

I Know what I want to say,but I'm having a hard time conveying it to you....

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

Warning: The following post is intended to be in laymen's terms. If you are of great knowledge in the field of physics, please cut me some slack

The stronger the magnetic field, the less sustain. It's the same reason why you don't put single coils with the alnico pole pieces close to the strings... they'll pull them out of tune. The physics involved here are also why you get so much sustain out of EMG pups... they have next to no magnetic pull on the strings.

 

[Twitch]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

So what SD single coil pickups would you say provide the greatest sustain?

 

[BSting]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

I can understand how a string's vibration is diminished by a stronger magnetic field, but I don't think that is the thrust of the advertising.

 

[MattPete]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

I can understand how a string's vibration is diminished by a stronger magnetic field, but I don't think that is the thrust of the advertising.

Because the magnetic field (I'm assuming it's focused like by a pole piece or it's a rod magnet) want to pull the string towards the center of the piece. If the string is vibrating horizontally, it's resisting this magnetic pull as it swings out to the sides. I'm guessing that's the gist behind the parallel-axis trembucker: the magnetic field isn't concentrated in one place, but is spread out.

 

[JB_From_Hell]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

I can understand how a string's vibration is diminished by a stronger magnetic field, but I don't think that is the thrust of the advertising.

I have no idea what else it could be.

Which pickup models did you see the "improved sustain" advertised with?

 

[BSting]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

>>SH-4/TB-4 -- A completely balanced coil configuration produces great harmonics and a high output with just the right blend of sustain and distortion.<<

It shows up elsewhere,too.

AND what is meant by distortion as generated by a pickup?

 

[danglybanger]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

hotter pickups generate distortion quicker (when you turn up gain) than... um, pickups that aren't hot. in laymans terms
and yeah, just try any of those pickups that duncan claims to have sustain increased with, and you'll find that sustain does increase. I wouldn't question it.
dan

 

[BSting]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

I have a feeling it is all advertising hype with no technical basis. I can't test thoroughly so I could be wrong. Show me.

I have just put a DiMarzio x2n (very high output) in place of a DiM Humbucker from Hell (mid output, extended highs) and there is NO sustain change unless I crank the gain, and the higher output pu distorts sooner. Big deal.

The questions remains: do pickups compress the signal or generate distortion on their own?

 

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

Theres not really any Right answer to this question. I mean I hate to be the guy that Goes "ya know it is mostly hype" but truth of the matter is, Its is mostly hype. There are certain p'ups that will help you get thicker distortion (by way of higher output) and theres pickups that could effect sustain. But a pickup effect sustain enough to really warant advertiseing it? Nope. The magnetic field thing is true of single coils, But not so much of Humbuckers, considering the magnetic field is already pretty well spread out. In single coils the magnetic field can DECREASE sustain by pulling on the string (also makeing intonation difficult) but it can not increase sustain. Now if you switch from a pickup that hinders sustain, it can seem as if you are increaseing sustain, But your really just decreaseing the amount of magnetic pull. By way of different magnets (i.e. switch from alnico V poles to alnico II and there will be a difference). As far as Humbuckers, It is mostly Hype. The human brain has been known to trick itself into seeing or hearing somthing if it thinks it should hear somthing.
Sustain is created by the interaction of the sting to the body/neck. The pickup itself does not increase sustain. the only way to really increase sustain, is to Raise your stings (lower action= ****ty tone, and lessened sustain its true), Use heavyer Gauge strings (Higher tension= more sustain), Or to use a guitar with body woods that promote sustain (i.e. Swamp ash, Mahogany, Maple etc...). Pickups don't increase sustain, sorry guys. Alotta the things you hear in your head when you change p'ups is Just that. In your head. If you believe you will hear a difference you will. If you believe you won't you won't. Its pretty simple really. Now that doesn't mean you shouldn't buy better p'ups. Certain p"ups will Sound better with different woods, and bring out certain different undertones that other P'ups may have missed. Wood has a much larger effect on tone than anything else. Don't believe me? Thats fine. Ed

 

[BSting]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

Wood has a much larger effect on tone than anything else. Don't believe me? Thats fine. Ed

...except changing the pickups or amp settings, of course.
And swapping the wooden parts is just such a pain........

 

[Low_fidelity2100]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

...except changing the pickups or amp settings, of course.
And swapping the wooden parts is just such a pain........

Yeah, thats why putting some uber awsome pickups in a ply wood guitar makes it awsome right? Put great pickups in a Guitar made out of Crap, and its still gonna sound like Crap. Twist the knobs on yer amp all you want, your still gonna sound like crap. But If you get a guitar made out of Good wood to begain with, Put even they cheapest P'ups in and its gonna sound Pretty decent. Better pups will make a good guitar sound better, But great P'ups in a crap guitar ain't gonna change anything (cept the amount money you wasted). Start with good wood, and You can make it sound Better. Start with Crap wood and its never gonna sound good. Pickups might Slightly improve it, but its still not gonna sound good. Ed

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

I'm not sure a string only vibrates side to side...maybe mostly side to side: maybe. But maybe not.

In any case, I think Mattpete was correct when he said:
"Because the magnetic field (I'm assuming it's focused like by a pole piece or it's a rod magnet) wants to pull the string towards the center of the piece."

So perhaps pickups with a weaker magnetic field, like the alnico 2 pickups, might aid sustain by not pulling on the string so hard magnetcally and thus dampening its ability to vibrate unimpeded by being pulled off in a direction towards the magnets.

Possibly adjusting pickups further from the strings might aid sustain for that reason?

I know my Strats sustain better with the pickups properly adjusted so they don't pull on the strings so much.

Lew

 

[mrfjones]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

i think there is something to this, because playing a les paul jr or esquire sounds different than playing a les paul special or telecaster on the bridge pickup. the jr and esquire have different sounds and more sustain than thier dual pickup counter parts. removing a pickup took away from that magnetic field and let the strings vibrate more freely, increasing harmonics and sustain.

so any change in the magnetic field stronger or weaker would have an effect, maybe it would be too small to hear but it would still have an effect if you measured output and did a bunch of comparitive readings. This part should still be true with humbuckers, simply because a humbucker still uses a magnetic field to pickup string vibration, it is just not as focused as a single coil and has less of an effect on string pull.

All of this can be explained by physics but it is very simple and sometimes a very small difference. Wood is the first place to start, when you get good sustain unpluged you can get more sustain plugged in. Your pickups will aid this in very small ways.

Now notice the add doesn't say increased sustain over which pickup. there is a purpose to wording things like that, it keeps them out of legal trouble. They can't claim that all duncans have an increase in sustain over all dimarzios or all gibson pickups, but a jb should have increases sustain over a crappy stock high output bucker, see where i am going with this.

my advise to test this is to get some alnico 2 single coils and set them just as high as a set of alnico 5 pickups then you should see or hear the change in sustain. it will still be small but it is something one can test.

 

[gordon_39422]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

A string does not, in fact, vibrate from side to side. Immediately after the first pluck, it is vibrating side-to-side in majority, but it quickly seeks equilibrium and starts to return to an oscillation that is equal on all axes. The string is technically out of tune until it establishes equilibrium. Fortunately it is hardly enough to notice unless you really bang on the string.

Also, a string with two fixed points will actually vibrate in two directions from the center point of the string's length; one is clockwise and the other is counter-clockwise. Along this length are nodes that do not move and antinodes which experience maximum displacement. If a pickyp were located under one of the nodes, little disturbance would be created by the pup. However, that wouldnt happen. One, the fretboard ends in the vicinity of the last node (approximately 1/3 of the lentgth of the string between the two points. Secondly, because we change the length of the string by placing our fingers on different frets the pup would have to constantly move in proportion to the strings length.

Density is the main factor in natural sustain. If you created an electric guitar out dense metal it would have the greatest sustain. Of course, it would have no character in terms of warmth or body. To counter this, the most dense woods are vital for sustain. Why not make every guitar out of the most dense wood? Tastes differ, some are not interested in eternal sustain, but prefer warm of even dark tones which require less dense woods.

As low low-fi said earlier, start with good wood. A pup will accentuate good wood, but doesnt do much for crap wood. There is a sort of exchange with gain and sustain when choosing pups. The higher output pups will enhibit distortion at earlier stages than lower outputs, but will also place a higher constant magnetic field on the strings which will not only have a tendency to pull the strings out of their concentric vibrations, but will cause them to return to rest quicker than those of less output. That, my friends is read as less sustain. Ever notice how some notes really stand out when you have your guitar wide open. That is because the nodes are in close proximity to the pups. Check yourself when you are doing pinch harmonics, some of those notes are right above the pups.

This is also why so many people love the 2nd and 4th position of the strat. Not only does it have hum-cancelling effects, but it also doubles the exposure of the sting to the pup.

Sorry to get so carried away, but I just get excited when I have the answers to some of the posts. Everyone knows that I am debt to the forum for the many dilemmas with which you have collectively offered assistance. With the rate at which I am learning music theory, performance techniques, and accoustic properties as they apply to physics, I am eager to share this knowledge with my fellow SD fans!

 

[Lewguitar]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

In terms of sustain, I think a very overlooked factor is string angle behind the bridge and behind the nut.

The steeper the angle behind the bridge and behind the nut, the better the tone and the better the sustain.

Which is why I always shim the neck a little if the string saddles seem to low on my Fender guitars.

And why I adjust the stop tailpiece on my Les Paul and Monoco as low as it can go...just before the string starts to touch the back edge of the body of the tune-o-matic bridge.

Steeper string angle behind the nut and behind the bridge presses the string against the nut and saddle more firmly and sounds better to me.

Lew

 

[rspst14]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

A string does not, in fact, vibrate from side to side.

This is correct. Strings do not vibrate side to side, they vibrate in an eliptical pattern. As you move to heavier strings, they will vibrate in less of an eliptical pattern and more of a straight line, but they never totally move side to side. That's why you can get lower action from heavier strings without buzzing, as opposed to lighter strings which must be set higher to avoid fret buzz. If strings did move completely side to side, you would be able to set your action so low that the strings barely cleared the frets and you wouldn't get any buzz.

As far as Duncan's advertising, they never come out and say that a pickup will improve sustain. Sustain is largely dependednt on the construction and setup of the guitar. Electronics have little to do with it.

There are of course exceptions. Pickups with very little magnetic pull can be set closer to the strings without affecting sustain. If you've ever tried Kinman, Lace, or Bill Lawrence single coils, you'll find that this is in fact true. I believe EMG's are the same way, but I've never tried them so I can't verify that.

Ryan

 

[sanrafael]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

Gordon and rspst are right about the elliptical motion of the string. And here is where the pickup can destroy the sustain. You can resolve elliptical motion into two linear components, towards the pup and perpendicular to that. As some one said above, if you pick to give motion in one componeent, or mode, you will soon have it in both. For energy to flow smoothly from one mode to the other, the properties of the string must be the same for both. Normally this is very close to true. But if you use a pup with a strong magnet, the frequency in the mode towards the pup is altered. This can be measured by digitally recording the pup output. For strong magnets, or with the pup too close to the string, you can frequency analyze the signal and see that it splits into two closely spaced vibration frequencies. This destroys the natural motion of the string, and increases the rate at which energy is lost. No energy, no sustain.

 

[BSting]

Re: Can/how do pickups affect sustain?

>>APTL-1, APTR-1 - These pickups are designed for the most demanding Telecaster® players. Alnico II magnets are the musical magnets. Their softer magnetic field allows for a more natural string vibration resulting in greater sustain and less edginess.
STK-T2b - By stacking two coils with extra windings around a bar magnet, the output is boosted without altering the pure single coil sound. You get a hotter, brighter sound with more emphasis on the midrange and greater sustain.
STHR-1b - This lead position pickup is a direct replacement humbucker. It delivers a fat, full sound. The two thin blades with powerful coil windings combine to give you a raw, distorted rock 'n' roll tone with incredible sustain.<<

Here are some of SD's references to sustain in their advertising.
It looks like they will use increased overall output, enhanced mids, or softer magnetic field to justify the claim of increased sustain.

I don't quibble about the guitar construction (another topic) or action of the string within the magnetic field as being factors but is there anything else inherent to the pickup that can affect sustain? This would only be signal compression, right, and I am still trying to find out if that, in fact, is a factor in pickup design.

Further is the question of distortion as a pickup property. What is that about?