Can I move the pole pieces?

brandobean

New member
I plan to use my Snark as a dummy coil. It is a special model only sold at Guitar Center. It is similar to the SSL1.

Can I safely remove the magnetic pole pieces on this pickup?

Thanks, brando
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

I am not sure what "dummy coil" means in this case, but if it is a coil which cancels magnetic hum (as in a humbucker pup), but receives no signal from the strings, then the answer is clear. In this case, this coil needs the pole pieces in order to keep its sensitivity to magnetic fields. The pole pieces are ferromagnetic; this means that a small applied magnetic field is greatly amplified. It is this amplification that makes a pup coil sensitive to small magnetic fields, both from the strings and from interfering sources such as hum. The pole pieces in the dummy coil do not need to be magnetized, but the coil must have the same sensitivity to fields as the active coil. For example, if the active coil is a single coil pup using magnets as pole pieces, then using an identical dummy coil with the same magnets as pole pieces would be one way to get the same sensitivity. However, there are other ways to do it too.
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

It depends on what you mean by safely. You can probably drill them out without hurting yourself but they can't be easily removed and replaced.
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

Let me clarify.

I already have a "snark" by duncan in the neck. I am adding a coil without magnets to cancel hum. Therefore I need to buy another pickup. I like the snark so much I thought I'd buy another to make the "dummy" coil from it because the resistance of the dummy needs to be close to the actual pickup to cancel hum well.

So. Can I safely slip the pole pieces out of a snark pickup? It has slugs of Alnico 5.

I know on some vintage strat pickups the coil can be damaged by removing the slugs.

Is this the case with the Great White Snarks?

thanks,

brando
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

The slugs make the sensitivity to the hum; if you take them out it no longer will cancel hum from the active pup.
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

It might be easier to deguass the poles. I know the transformers in soldering guns can mess up a magnet, there must be something fairly easy to get your hands on that can demagnetize the poles.

Where are those science guys when you need them?
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

I know it will cancel the hum if the pole pieces are not in the active pickup. I did this on my strat. I took the pole pieces and cheap bar magnets out of my mexi strats middle pickup to make the notch position between neck and middle be hum canceling but the sound is "neck only."

What I need to know is if it is safe to take the slug magnets out of a snark.

I am putting a single in the neck of my Les Paul and I plan to hide the dummy in the cavity.

I really want to use the snark, but I am open to the idea of buying a set of mexi strat single coils.

I'd prefer to use the snark because of the sound it makes.

My LP would switch like this.

1 Single coil in neck wired in parallel with dummy coil
2 neck and bridge in parallel
3 JB wired in series

I just need info on if it is safe to take the magnets out of a snark.

I know this setup will work because I have done it before with different single coils.

Can I slide the magnets out without damaging the coil?
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

Robert S. Good idea, but I do not want any extra metal on the dummy causing problems also I don't know how I could totally knock out all of the magnetism. It leaves too much to chance..
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

San Raphael. You can take the magnets out and still cancel hum. A similar effect results from taking the pole pieces out of a humbucker.

I did this on my strat. I made the middle coil a dummy (took out poles and magnets), wired in a 3 way switch like this:

1 neck and RW/RP dummy (no hum)
2 Neck, RW/RP dummy and bridge (some hum but not as much as regular singles)
3 bridge and dummy (no hum)

I guess it is like a telecaster with a dummy coil. It works.
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

Some stacked humbuckers have a plate between the top & bottom halves, and there are no poles or magnets in the bottom (dummy) coil. Since the hum factor is largely due to a coil being an effective antenna, I don't see why you'd need magnets in there, either.
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

brandobean said:
San Raphael. You can take the magnets out and still cancel hum. A similar effect results from taking the pole pieces out of a humbucker.

That is surprising, and seems to contradict the basic physics. Consider pups that use magnets around the edge of the coil. They should need no cores. But I think you will find that they use cores, and will not work without them.
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

Here is another thing to consider. A dummy coil with no pole pieces or slugs has a very low inductance since it is the ferromagnetic properties of the slugs that causes the high inductance of the pup. If you put a coil without slugs in parallel with a single coil pup as you are proposing for the LP, then the dummy should load down the pup. The dummy is just a resistor connected across a high inductance circuit.

In your strat mod, did the dummy go in parallel or series?
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

I did it in parallel, but Fender in the Powerhouse strat supposedly does it in series.

I opted for parallel because of the chimey sounds you get with 2 parallel strat pickups.

Sanrafael: Go to www.mrgearhead.com and look closely (if you don't you might miss it) at the wiring and parts diagram for the power house strat. It has a dummy coil in the controls cavity.

According to FDP forum members it has no hum in the original 3 single coil positions and less hum than a regular single, but more than a humbucker in the 2 notch positions.

My strat acts like this when I have the bridge and neck together.

I am not saying I have defied the laws of physics or anything, but I do seem to remember someone telling me that the coils need to be on the same surface plain. I have to pooh-pooh that comment too but not from personal experience (I use the power house to make that case).

I am going to do the LP later tonight. I'll let you know.

Actually I was thinking about it. The Reverse Winding is kinda BS because you could simply reverse the leads (I think), but I see your point. The Reverse Polarity seems to be the key. But you don't need magnets for a dummy coil and after all of this reading and writing I can still not yet explain to you why it works.

Sorry.

brando
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

Thanks for the reply, Brando; this is interesting. It may well be that the dummy coil with no cores gives cancellation of electrostatic hum. Strats have two kinds of pickup problems:
1. They are not a well shielded guitar (stock, that is), and so pickup stuff from electric fields
2. The single coil pups are susceptible to magnetic field pickup, except in the 2-4 positions where you get the 2 pup humbucker effect.

Shielding is one way to help with the first; maybe the coil does also. An example of the second is like what happens when you hold the strat close to the power transformer in the amplifier. The power transformer leaks a magnetic hum field, and the pup sees it. Normal electgrostatic shielding cannot get rid of this. Also this is what I think the coreless dummy coil cannot help with, but I am interested in you results with the LP.
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

The inductance issue is assuming that the coil picks up noise & hum in the same manner that it picks up signal. It does not. Noise comes from the fact that *a coil is an antenna*. It is ALSO an inductor, but it functions as both. So, a dummy coil need only be an antenna to feed an out of phase noise signal.

It should ideally be "on the same plane" in that it should ideally "see" the same exact interference/noise/etc that the primary coil sees. The problem is, on WHAT plain, in a 3d space? Stacked buckers put them on one plain, normal buckers on another. Both are a compromise, as you never know where the source of interference will be.
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

Hey sanrafael; I just wanted to clarify a couple things. I think you might be getting a couple electrical principals discombobulated. ;)

A coil needs a magnetic field to generate electricity, but not to conduct electricity thats already present. The "hum-cancelling" aspect of a HB comes from its ability to cancel out stray AC electromagnetic fields that are already in the air. Ergo, a magnet isn't needed to pick them up. Old vinatge radios used large windings of wire to act as the antenna within the back of the radio case.

I believe you're correct about altering the inductance, but I don't think it will be by a significant amount. ;)
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

Artie,

This is getting a bit complicated, but let me try again. Permanent magnets have nothing to do with the pickup, as I said above, and as you say. The only purpose of the permanent magnetic field in a pup is to induce a magnetic field in the strings. The vibrating string then induces a varying magnetic field in the pup. The coil produces a voltage from the time-varying magnetic field. The cores play an essential role: they amplify the changing magnetic field. This is a large effect; without ferromagnetic cores the pup would not work. The cores also increase the inductance of the coil by the same large amount. It is really the same effect; inductance is a result of the magnetic field produced by current flowing in the coil producing a voltage in the coil that opposes the flow of current. The cores amplify this field and so increase the inductance a lot.

The cores in the standard humbucker play a dual role: 1. they increase the sensitivity as described above; 2. they are magnetized by the magnet and thus they then magnetize the strings.

In a single coil pup using magnets as the cores, these magnets play a dual role:1. they magnetize the strings 2. they amplify the field from the strings.

One of the advantages of using separate cores and magnets is that the two types of materials can be optimized. Permanent magnets are not necessarily the best materials for amplifying fields. Using soft iron for the cores and permanent magnet behind them is more efficient.

Suppose one used a very strong magnetic material, neodymium, as magnets in a single coil pup. There would be two problems: 1. string pulling from the way too strong field; 2. the pup would have low output and the wrong voicing. The problem with using very strong magnets as cores is that nearly all the little magnetic domains are already lined up in the same direction. Amplifying the field requires flipping lots of the domains, and there are not many left to flip, and these few are very difficult to flip.

Interference comes in three types:
1. electromagnetic fields. These are propagating waves (radio waves) that can come from distant sources. This is usually not a probelm with pups, but it could be. A metallic layer shields out electromagnetic waves.

2. electric fields. Electric fields come from electric charge. Charge that changes in time produces electric fields that change in time, like hum from an electrical system. Unbalanced or poorly gounded electric systems produce electric fields as does any electrical equipment. A metallic layer shields out electric fields.

3. magnetic fields. Generally only electrical devices containing ferromagnetic material cause magnetic fields that are strong enough to make problems with pups. A power transformer in an amplifier is an example. The transformer core uses a ferromagnetic material to get a large inductance and a high coupling between the primary and secondary windings. A metallic layer does not shield out magnetic fields.

Thus shielding techniques using a metalic (or otherwise conducting) layer can handle the first two types of interference, but they cannot handle the third. Since a pup must be sensitive to changing magnetic fields in order to sense the strings, it must also be sensitive to changing magnetic field from hum sources unless:
1. You use a magnetic shielding material. This is possible, but not so easy.
2. You cancel the hum but keep the sensitivity to the strings by a clever arrangement of two or more coils.

This is what the humbucker was intended to do. Is it possible that the humbbucker also cancels electric fields? Sure, but apparently the inventor was not so certain that it would do a good job, because he put it inside a metal box to keep out the electrical fields.
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

Yep. The ole nickle plated cover... My favorite look.

That "on the same plane" but relative to what question plagues me too..in a 3d scheme.

I have been trying to duplicate the summy coil scheme in my Schecter PT blackjack (similar pickup layout to a LP). I can't get it to work right.

I think I need 2 pickups made by the same company. I have un wound one coil to match the other, but still to no avail even after switching leads. Ah well.

I got a Ibanez V7 that I shall put in the neck and call it good. I really need a low output pickup for my tastes. Maybe when I run into a RWRP Snark I will change the V7 out.

PS. I did the shielding per www.guitarnuts.com recommendations and have benefitted from it. I have the quietist strat (with real single coils) in Utah... I think anyway.

It is a real improvement. At least it was for my problems.

brando
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

Shielding a strat is a really good thing to do. I wonder why when it became clear (about one year after its invention) that the strat was not going to be played clean at 1 and a half by gentlemen in bow ties and tuxedos (and ladies in evening dresses), Fender avoided shielding it properly. It would save everybody a lot of trouble and would have set the standard for all the imitators.
 
Re: Can I move the pole pieces?

I had a powerhouse strat and it did not have pole pieces in the dummy coil. Just pop out the pole pieces and wire it up. The two coils (dummy and pickup) are used together to cancel out noise. It has nothing to do with the magnets.
 
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