Chord naming question...

[tc]

I was playing around with a progression I came up with and one of the chords was a half diminished one with a perfect fourth on top, so I was thinking how would it be properly written?

First thing that came to mind was just min7b5 add 11, but that's a mouthful. After a while, I thought min11b5 has all the necessary notes, only that it might imply a note that's not actually there (the ninth).

Which would you go for and why?

 

[DustyCat]

Re: Chord naming question...

If it's half diminished as you say, (using classical harmony terminology) it can also be considered Xm7b5 in contemporary/jazz harmony. If you have a 7 like you say you do, the perfect 4th becomes a tension and you have Tension 11, thus negating the need for "add."

Add is only used when there is no 7 present.
It sounds like Xm7b5(11).
This of course does not take enharmonics/upper structure triads into consideration, just the chord as it you have given us.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Chord naming question...

Firstly - dusty is spot on, but there is more to this thats worth being aware of:

Chord estensions (such as your 11th) are often up to the player if you are improvising around a set of changes.

Chord charts are really there only to give signposts about keys, harmonies and modalities and so on. There is no point spelling out all the possible extensions for every chord - just the important ones.

In the case of your chord (m7b5) the important notes pertaining to harmony are the flat 3, the flat 5 and the flat 7. The two scales most commonly associated with a half diminished chord are the locrain and the second mode of the melodic minor scale. Both scales have a perfect 4th in them - so there is no need to include it in the chart.

NOw to chord funtion. Here is where things get murky -the locrian is the 7th mode of the major scale right? Definitely - but its rarely used in that context. The locrain is commonly used as the 2nd chord in minor harmony. Eg (bm7b5 e7b9 am#7)
Less commonly, the 2 chord in minor harmony is called the (bsusb9) chord.
When this is written, then melodic minor harmony is explicit, whereas a regular half diminished chord can lead to other minor harmonies.

So - to try to keep a long story short, just call it m7b5 (or half diminished). If the 4th is part of the melody, then most good musicians will know its there (especially keyboardists). I think where you are getting confused is between the funtions of melody and harmony. You definitely want the 4th played right? Thats cool - thats because you are hearing a certain melodic line within your chord progression. But here is why you dont need to write it into the changes:

Imagine you are singing the melody line, its really not necessary for another guitarist or keyboard to double the melody line as you do - their job is harmony. All they need is to know the chord tones that will harmonise with the melody. Writing either m7b5 or susb9 by definition lets the players know that if they are extended that the 4th is perfect - otherwise it would have sharp 11 or something included in the chord. make sense?

So - keep your chord charts as simple as possible - and write that all important 4th into the melody line instead and the job is done!


last thing - if you have come up with a nice chord melody arrangement on your axe and want it played verbatim....write it down in regular musical notation and have simple chord charts above the staff as usual.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Chord naming question...

Assuming the root is a C: Properly, I think you'd call it a "C half-diminished 7th suspended 11th." However, I find stating suspensions above the 7th to be annoying in casual conversation. I'd rather say "high 4th" or just "4th" than "11th" to get a quick point across to a band mate. Therefore, I'd call it a "C half-diminished sus. 4" in speech with band mates. It would be obvious to any guitar player that the so-called "4th" was actually an 11th.

If writing, I'd probably state it "Cøsus11" or "Cø(11)" (but make the "ø" a superscript, of course).

This is all assuming that C is actually the root note in this formation you discovered. It being the lowest note does not necessarily make it the root. Your ears will tell you that.

P.S. As for "spelling" the chord, I am assuming he means: C, D#, F#, A#, high F.

 

[tc]

Re: Chord naming question...

Hey guys! Thanks for the replies. Basically, like I said before, it's just a half diminished or min7b5 chord with an 11 on top.

1 - b3 - b5 - b7 - 11

I used B, so:

B - D - F - A - E

It's not in B by the way, it's in A major only that instead of a regular ii (min7) I'm playing around with that min7b5.

@Dustycat: Thanks for clearing up the "add" thing, I thought it was used whenever any third below the tension was omitted (in this case, the 9th). Nice to know it only applies to the omission of the 7th.

@Itsabass: Doesn't the presence of the third kill the possibility of the chord being called suspended?

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Chord naming question...

@Itsabass: Doesn't the presence of the third kill the possibility of the chord being called suspended?

Yeah, you are right. I always forget that rule. And with diminished chords, I don't really think of them as having 3rds and 5ths, but more as a string of identical intervals in which any note in the chord can be the root, so that threw me off. I was thinking about that after I posted. That is still how I'd say it in conversation, but not how I'd write it. I'd just do the Bø(11) thing, I guess.

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Chord naming question...

You said half diminished earlier now you have a b3 and a b5?

When you say 11 you get the free 7th tone included in the definition. It can be a b7 or a regular 7...but some peple will prefer that you write the b7 if its there.

And you're playing Bdimb7(11)/A

Because the bass player is in A when you use it.

That's about as accurate as it gets on this one.

A half diminished 7th chord is 1, b3, b5, b7 of the chord. The b7 is included in a half diminished 7th chord, so it does not need to be added. The only extra note on top of that is the 11th, which is an extension, meaning that it skips the 9th...as opposed to a plain "11" without parentheses, which mean an "eleventh" chord, and includes the 9th.

An A bass would be there to show the guitarist an inversion for the chord in this case, not because the bass player is playing an A. The bass player is not playing an A from what I gather. The OP just said that the song is in the key of A.

The way you wrote it ("Bdimb7(11)/A") would be b7(low), 1, b3, b5, b6, b7 (optional), 11. Calling it a full diminished chord as you did leaves the b6 in there, and adds a b7. Calling it a half diminished 7th, as the OP correctly did, replaces the b6 of a full diminished with the b7, and negates the need to state "b7." (Though "m7b5" is one way of writing a half diminished 7th chord on paper, you wouldn't actually speak it out that way; you'd just say "half diminished" for short.)

What I am unclear on is how you would speak the chord out. The 11 is an extension, not a suspension...so what do you say, apart from "half diminished with an 11 on top?" Someone above said "tension 11." First time I have ever heard it stated that way. Perhaps "add11" would be acceptable notation? "B half diminished add 11?" Or "extended 11?" "B half diminished extended 11?"

 

[ItsaBass]

Re: Chord naming question...

It would be weird to go to that B chord and stay there for any legth of time. He must be pumping the A through the Bass and playing the Bdimadd11 over it on the 6 string.

I don't get this line of thought at all. What is so weird about a II chord, of whatever variety, that would make it clear that the bass would be holding the A?

Not that it makes a difference in what I just said, but he is not playing a "Bdimadd11." It is a half diminished seventh chord. They are different chords, and the terms are not used interchangeably.

It's a pretty easy chord to stumble upon if it is a B. It is a diminished-esque zigzag pattern, but moved down a string, and with an open high E on top. Not sure how you'd just happen to come across it with any other root note, though.

 

[Chickenwings]

Re: Chord naming question...

@Itsabass: Doesn't the presence of the third kill the possibility of the chord being called suspended?

Actually its only guitarists that think that playing a 4 or 2 means omitting the third due to the way we voice our chords. Guitraists generally omit the 3, but thats more due to the mechanics of how we play our instrument, rather than a rulke of harmony. Pianists often include the 3 and the 4.
A sus 4 or sus 2 is a way of saying that its not an 11 or a 9 chord (which by definition contains a 7th).
Suspended means the note (a 4 or 2) is played, not altered as in the case of a #4 (or #11) or a b9 or #9 type chord.


WHen writing a chord chart there is no need to write out all the extensions.....writing C or C maj is enough information to work out what the notes in the arpeggio extensions will apply (most commonly it would be the major scale and less commonly it would be the lydian). Same goes for any other chord symbol. There are no rules saying you must play any or all of the notes in the relevant scale. That is up to the musician. The shorter the chord symbol the easier it is for a musician to choose the appropriate scale - its the altered notes to that are important to include. Major chords all pertain to the major scale and altered notes are included in the chord symbol (i.e. 7 or #4 or #11 etc). Minor chords pertain to the natual minor scale, so notes that wont fit are also added to the chord symbol (i.e Am(maj7), Am7b5 etc.Things can get confusing tho, because often the musician is left with not enough information - thats where a thorough understanding of chord funtion and keys becomes important. *

If you really want a specific voicing for any chord (such as the one in the OP's thread) then, just write out the notes in standard notation.


* to the OP - its not cheap, but you should invest in a book called "the jazz theory handbook" by marke levine to answer any or all questions like this in the future. Its a goldmine of information and its laid out step by step to give any musician a a thorough understanding of melody and harmony.