Coil-split wiring question, need help!

[rbd]

Hello, I'm in the process of swapping my guitar's active pu's for SD passives, mainly because of more versatility, not that I was that unhappy with the active pu's humbucking tones. In the process, I hope to loose that bit of compression that comes along specially on clean tones, and get rid of the battery. In case in matters, the guitar is a Schecter Loomis, 24 frets, 2 soapbar active humbuckers, one vol pot and a 3 way switch. And the pu's to be installed will be probably a Distortion bridge and a Sentient neck, active mount format.

So, the idea is to have a push-pull vol pot to split the pu's, and after checking a few diagrams and discussions, it started to get a bit overwhelming to me. I assume I'm a noob at this but understand the basic concept that you're shorting one coil to have just the other working.

Now, what confused me was comparing these two diagrams:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=2h_1v_3w_pp
http://www.seymourduncan.com/support/wiring-diagrams/schematics.php?schematic=coil_splitting

The full diagram seems to have the same wiring in both pu's but the slug and screw coils are in reversed positions. The split diagram shows that you can choose which coil to split with different wirings.

So, the north and south coils are always the slug and screw coils respectively or are they reversed for the bridge and neck versions?
Is it the same flipping a pickup and using the the different wiring options shown in the second diagram? I mean, if I wanted to compare which coil I wanted to keep active - inner or outter - which should I do?

Also, I've seen that when using both pu's splitted at the same time, I'll have a few options for combining them: humbucker, parallel, out-of-phase, ... After I choose which coils are split, do I still have these options or the result is implied by the coils chosen alone?

Cheers!

 

[Artie]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

So, the north and south coils are always the slug and screw coils respectively or are they reversed for the bridge and neck versions?
Is it the same flipping a pickup and using the the different wiring options shown in the second diagram? I mean, if I wanted to compare which coil I wanted to keep active - inner or outter - which should I do?

This is just going to be the quik-'n-dirty version because I'm off to bed soon. Look at this post first. I always hate to refer to coils as "north" or "south". I prefer screw and slug, but some pickups don't even have that. Such as Invaders and "rails". And each pickup manufacturer follows their own path. There's no "standard". For Seymour Duncan pickups, the "slug", or "stud" coil is usually the black/white wires, and the screw, or adjustable coil, is the red/green wires. Thats regardless of whether they are a bridge or neck pickup. Shorting the red/white to ground will give you the stud coil, and shorting red/white to "hot" will give you the screw coil. Usually. I've got an Invader right in front of me that has the coils reversed. SD did some JB's awhile back that were reversed also. (They're only human.)

Here's my own webpage for determining which coil is which, and absolute polarity for anyone's pickups. Artie's Pickup ID

Also, I've seen that when using both pu's splitted at the same time, I'll have a few options for combining them: humbucker, parallel, out-of-phase, ... After I choose which coils are split, do I still have these options or the result is implied by the coils chosen alone?

Cheers!

With the right switch, and identification of which wires are which, you can do anything.

Cheers back atcha;
Artie

 

[rbd]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

Ok, after a bit more reading from your other post and SD's own color chart, I think it's safe to assume as a general SD rule that each coil, slug or screw, have always the same color wires, regardless of being a bridge or neck pickup. And that from the pics below, neck pu's have a "normal" position with the slug and screw coil positions reversed. Those would be a 59 and a Jazz. This would be confirmed with your diagrams too, if I'm getting it right.

In my case, my option for an active mount Sentient as a picture with only the screw coil showing, and it's in the "south" position, although it seems a generic pic.

If all this is right, and if I wanted, say... the inner coils active when split, I'dd have to settle with a non-humbucking tone with both these coils. Right...?
Or does it make any sense if I flipped it AND used the alternative wiring to have the screw coil active on the inside?

Damn, I'm almost sure I made little sense...

 

[hermetico]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

Ok, after a bit more reading from your other post and SD's own color chart, I think it's safe to assume as a general SD rule that each coil, slug or screw, have always the same color wires, regardless of being a bridge or neck pickup. And that from the pics below, neck pu's have a "normal" position with the slug and screw coil positions reversed. Those would be a 59 and a Jazz. This would be confirmed with your diagrams too, if I'm getting it right.

In my case, my option for an active mount Sentient as a picture with only the screw coil showing, and it's in the "south" position, although it seems a generic pic.

If all this is right, and if I wanted, say... the inner coils active when split, I'dd have to settle with a non-humbucking tone with both these coils. Right...?
Or does it make any sense if I flipped it AND used the alternative wiring to have the screw coil active on the inside?

Damn, I'm almost sure I made little sense...

Yes, it makes sense.
Just swap black and green wires in those diagrams and flip both pickups.
That will give you screw coils "Inside".

 

[Artie]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

If all this is right, and if I wanted, say... the inner coils active when split, I'd have to settle with a non-humbucking tone with both these coils. Right...?
Or does it make any sense if I flipped it AND used the alternative wiring to have the screw coil active on the inside?

Ok guys . . . you're kind of mixing the proverbial apples and oranges here. The physical orientation of the pickup, in the body, has nothing to do with which coil is split, humbucking, or phase. (Or anything, for that matter, except cosmetics.)

Which coil is split, is determined solely by whether or not the red/white is shorted to ground or hot. (Green or black respectively.) Whether or not its humbucking depends on two different things. Split one pup to stud and the other to screw, and you get humbucking. And you can still do this by shorting to ground if you wire it as I show in the following diagram. (Right hand diagram.) Alternatively, you can split to both studs, and have it remain humbucking, if you don't mind doing a mag flip on the neck pickup. (Left hand diagram.)

Phase is not affected in either scenario.



Personally, I find it easiest, (and it sounds good), to just split bridge/stud - neck/screw.

Make sense?

 

[Guitaraxz]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

Arties comments are 100% correct, listen to him or you'll either get a non humbucking split or an unwanted out of phase.
If you want to see more wiring options, there are hundreds, click here; http://www.geocities.jp/dgb_studio/2hvari_e.htm

 

[rbd]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

Ok guys . . . you're kind of mixing the proverbial apples and oranges here. The physical orientation of the pickup, in the body, has nothing to do with which coil is split, humbucking, or phase. (Or anything, for that matter, except cosmetics.)

Which coil is split, is determined solely by whether or not the red/white is shorted to ground or hot. (Green or black respectively.) Whether or not its humbucking depends on two different things. Split one pup to stud and the other to screw, and you get humbucking. And you can still do this by shorting to ground if you wire it as I show in the following diagram. (Right hand diagram.) Alternatively, you can split to both studs, and have it remain humbucking, if you don't mind doing a mag flip on the neck pickup. (Left hand diagram.)

Phase is not affected in either scenario.

View attachment 47260

Personally, I find it easiest, (and it sounds good), to just split bridge/stud - neck/screw.

Make sense?

It took me a while but now I think it does now. So the standard diagram SD provides for splitting pu's is not humbucking, right? And since a mag flip is not something I would do, to achieve in phase humbucking split coils from both pu's they'll either bridge/stud - neck/screw or the other way around. Right...? And for the first I have two options: the 3rd diagram in your "Quick "splitting" refresher" topic, or the alternative wiring SD provides in the splitting-specific diagram, which is the same in the right side of your last pic, where these have the hot and ground in the screw coil reversed. Righty???

How did I do?

Btw, the picture in the Sentient product page isn't correct, it's a generic one. Since the Sentient is available as a neck only option, I looked for real pics from people who mounted this pickup and it does have the screw coil closer to the neck with the logo facing the bridge, like most neck pu's.

And thank you all for your help!

 

[Artie]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

You're almost there.

. . . which is the same in the right side of your last pic, where these have the hot and ground in the screw coil reversed. Righty???

Not exactly. Note this diagram:



I've simply "stretched out" the coils of a humbucker so they're in a straight line. On the bottom one, I've reversed the order, not the polarity, of the coils. Red and black still point to the right, and green and white still point to the left. Hot and ground have never been reversed. The is just to make the humbucker splittable by taking the internal connection to ground.

It's the same thing you show in the 2nd link of your 1st post.

 

[rbd]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

Many thanks! Just awaiting to get the pu's. Which may take a while. Ordered just one from the US just to see how it will run through the Customs, and only then I'll order the other.

Cheers!

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

Artie's really a genius...not (only) for what he knows, but because he can describe it so well and understandable. We are truly fortunate to have him as a regular forum member.

 

[hermetico]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

You're almost there.



Not exactly. Note this diagram:

View attachment 47276

I've simply "stretched out" the coils of a humbucker so they're in a straight line. On the bottom one, I've reversed the order, not the polarity, of the coils. Red and black still point to the right, and green and white still point to the left. Hot and ground have never been reversed. The is just to make the humbucker splittable by taking the internal connection to ground.

It's the same thing you show in the 2nd link of your 1st post.

Bro, I fully understand this "virtual arrangement" but, I thought he wanted to flip the pickups, just because maybe he thinks will get something else by flipping the "standard" way.
By example, Keith Richards is always flipping the Neck pickup, maybe because he loves more the tone and, this is independently of to which coil he splits (if he splits).

 

[Jocelyn]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

Artie is always great a all these wiring. And yes the explanation as well.

 

[Artie]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

Bro, I fully understand this "virtual arrangement" but, I thought he wanted to flip the pickups, just because maybe he thinks will get something else by flipping the "standard" way.
By example, Keith Richards is always flipping the Neck pickup, maybe because he loves more the tone and, this is independently of to which coil he splits (if he splits).

Possibly. But I was under the impression that he was talking about a physical "flip" in order to make the "other" coil split. I was just making the point that splitting to either coil, and/or keeping it humbucking, is independent of the physical orientation of the pickup in the body. But, of course, he can still split to either coil and flip the pup.

Edit: Doc and Jocelyn . . . you're too kind.

 

[hermetico]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

Possibly. But I was under the impression that he was talking about a physical "flip" in order to make the "other" coil split. I was just making the point that splitting to either coil, and/or keeping it humbucking, is independent of the physical orientation of the pickup in the body. But, of course, he can still split to either coil and flip the pup.

Edit: Doc and Jocelyn . . . you're too kind.

Sure, splitting to one or the other doesn't depend on your pickup's orientation but, sometimes, with missmatched coils, a flip on the humbucker makes some differences.
Well, you know, english isn't my mother's language so, sometimes I'm in a maze.
But, agree with Doc and Jocelyn...
Hell... you know you were (and still are the source were I drink) my mentor and you deserve all my thanks!.
What else can I say other than ... God save Artietoo!.
:flowers1:

 

[rbd]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

OP here! Didn't get notified for these last posts... I asked for flipping a pickup as a way of splitting a different coil regarding its location in the guitar, instead of changing the wiring. For example, having the screw coil active in the neck, if I flipped it, the active coil would be a "inner" coil... That would only make sense to me if it helped to achieve a certain goal, like having both inner coils active when split, and humbucking.

Which leads me to my next question, a subjective one, but I'dd appreciate your thoughts: What do you prefer or what are the general characteristics/differences with both inner coils active and the coils closer to the neck from each pickup? Together and alone...

 

[Artie]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

I hope I'm answering the question you're asking.

When we talk of "inner" and "outer", what we really mean is, screw and stud. It just so happens that most dual-humbucker equipped guitars have the pickups mounted that way. (Slash's AII-Pro zebra set being an exception.) The screw coil and the stud coil sound different when split. The stud coil tends to be higher output. So, if you're going to split both pups, ideally, you'd want the higher output of the two. But that gets us back to them no longer being humbucking. There's also something else going on. On the bridge pup, the magnitude of string excursion, from one coil to the other, is somewhat significant. Not so with the neck pickup. So, on the bridge pup, we want the "inner", or stud coil, to get maximum string movement. On the neck pickup, it's not so critical, so we can make the concession of selecting the screw coil. (For ease of wiring and maintaining humbucking.)

But . . . if we want to have the option of splitting to either/or coils, then doing inner/outer makes sense. First we split to the "hotter" coils, then to the milder coils. Two distinctive tones. But if we want to maintain humbucking, we have to do the mag-flip.

So . . . if we want to keep it simple, we split bridge/stud - neck/screw. Everything stays humbucking. Sounds good. Simple wiring.

If we want our cake and eat it too, do the mag-flip, then split inner/outer.

Make sense?

Artie

 

[GuitarDoc]

Re: Coil-split wiring question, need help!

rbd...That's about the best looking LTD I've ever seen.